John D Salt Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Originally posted by Inola: There is difference between firing planes at big heights and defence against shturmoviks. Firing at large height means that the haight, where the HE projectile will explode is defined, and there is not nessesatry to have a dierect hit. 88 mm flak was primaly used for this target, as i think. Well, quite. And while it might make sense to put a time-fuze in an 8.8cm round for reasons other than self-destruction, it doesn't for 2cm. Apart from anything else, how would you do the fuze-setting? All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Originally posted by Santosdiablo: Why did he say dont delete move or hide my posts so many times Maybe because you deleted and hid his posts. Which is not allowed. Well, my best guess is because he's immature and in need of attention, and deleting spamming and vandalism is very much allowed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism If you have a problem with the way it was handled, feel free to comment on the page there, but I don't see anyone else complaining nor has any admin said anything. *shrug* Tempest in a teapot I guess. Thanks for the other useful replies, especially Joachim...I've added a link there to this page as I think the discussion here has been useful and hopefully interesting to editors there as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Originally posted by John D Salt: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: [snips] Yeah, good sources in English are hard to find; I would think German sources would be necessary for corroborating claims, but the only source used so far is a Russian one from the height of the Cold War so I have my doubts on how useful it is. And with good reason, I think. Page 260 of "The Battle for Kursk 1943: The Soviet General Staff Study" (tr. Glantz & Orenstein, Frank Cass, London, 1999) has this to say: "Ground forces highly valued the work of aviation on the battlefield. In a number of instances enemy attacks were thwarted thanks to our air operations. Thus on 7 July enemy tank attacks were disrupted in the Kashara region (13th Army). Here our assault aircraft delivered three powerful attacks in groups of 20-30, which resulted in the destruction and disabling of 34 tanks. The enemy was forced to halt further attacks and to withdraw the remnants of his force north of Kashara." Kashara is on the northern flank of the salient; I cannot make out what German units were deployed around there using the dreadful maps in the book, but the date I think is too much of a coincidence to be other than the attack your source refers to. 34 tanks claimed is a bit of a come-down, and I think very much more believable. All the best, John. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santosdiablo Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 No what you did was vandalism you Did move his stuff around And you are so arrogant you first Vandalize then says he is immature And you call him a vandal The only one immature here is you because you did alter his post And even more to his credit he has not touced the article. He re added things that you deleted things that had been sourced then you removed it again and what did he do he posted on the talk page To which you replied and then he make a second post to which you totally vandalized There arent admins on every page watching everything that everyone does You are arrogant plain and simple, calling him immature and a vandal when in fact it is you who has vandalized tha page and it is you who are immature. And to this day you still havent replied to his post. The link you gave is pure crap. And dosent do anything, as I said before either reply to him or you will be up to your neck in ****. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Originally posted by Santosdiablo: [QB] No what you did was vandalism you Did move his stuff aroundNo, I moved it into seperate sections so we could track the discussion better. And I deleted the childish duplicate clamouring for attention. And apologized for the confusion and invited him to discuss etiquette on my talk page, where that conversation belongs, not on the Il-2 page. And asked him to specify what I hadn't replied to and I would attempt to cover the ground I had missed. And to this day you still havent replied to his post.Nonsense. All moot, since it was archived by an admin in any event. as I said before either reply to him or you will be up to your neck in ****. Can't wait. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Beginna Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Originally posted by John D Salt: And while it might make sense to put a time-fuze in an 8.8cm round for reasons other than self-destruction, it doesn't for 2cm. Apart from anything else, how would you do the fuze-setting? All the best, John. [/QB] Dear John, interesting. I'm a lurker since CMBO and that's because my wisdom of weapons and warfare is quite limited. Anyhow, one can learn a lot by reading this forum. What I found out was that the 2 cm ammo came with or without a "Zerleger" ("decomposer"). I think that you are right when you say that these weren't timed fuses but devices for self-destruction of the shell. The following quotation from another forum in German made me want to learn more about the fuses / Zerleger / somefink... "beim abschuß wird durch das beharrungsvermögen des stößels mit nadel und der buchse die spirale in ihrer lage festgelegt. bei nachlassen der Beschleunigug und zunahme der rotation des geschoßes öffnet sich die spirale und gibt die aufschlageinrichtung frei. beim aufschlag wird die membrane eingedrückt und der stößel treibt die nadel indie sprengkapsel.es kommt zur detonation. trifft das geschoß auf kein ziel überwindet mit zunahme der rotation der auslöse-und der ausgleichshebel das drehmoment der drehfeder. beide hebel bewegen sich in pfeilrichtung nach außen bis zum begrenzungsstift. das zusammenwirken desaußlösehebels mit dem ausgleichhebel erfolgt über den am auslösehebel befindlichen stift. die sicherungsfeder wird beim ausschwingen des auslösehebels frei und biegt sich durch die fliehkraft nach außen und entsichert die zerlegeeinrichtung. die vorgespannte feder entspannt sich und schlägt die schlaghülse durch die freigewordene öffnung in der zwischenscheibe auf den bund der nadel, deren spitze in die sprengkapsel getrieben wird. es kommt ebenfalls zur detonation." In short: through setting a spring you can toggle after how much time the shell is going to detonate (if it not smashes in to something before). It reads as if there could be some kind of setable fuse even on these small shells. The small size given there won't be to much of shrapnel but anyway. As I'm interested in this particular issue ... ammo grogs to the rescue. Thanks in advance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmoney Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 I will step in and **** you real hard you will be up to your neck in ****. Hey Santos, defender of Nerds from the wiki site, how about you quit being a bully on this site. You know your threats are unnecessary and empty. How are you going to **** him real hard? By deleting a post of his on wiki? Get a life loser and quit being an internet tough guy, no one wants to read that crap on this site. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santosdiablo Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 You make it sound that you didnt do anything but fact is fact you split up his post and deleted half of it as can be seen here His original http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIlyushin_Il-2%2FArchive_1&diff=59290469&oldid=59284051 And after your arrogantism http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIlyushin_Il-2%2FArchive_1&diff=59297207&oldid=59290469 Half his post got moved half got deleted, non of which is allowed 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Originally posted by Santosdiablo: You make it sound that you didnt do anything but fact is fact you split up his post and deleted half of it as can be seen here His original http://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind And after your arrogantism http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit Half his post got moved half got deleted, non of which is allowed You left out the part where I peeked at his sister in gym class. Did you have anything intelligent to add to the discussion on Sturmoviks, or were you going to continue to whine about the fact I moved some of your sockpuppet's extraneous comments on the wiki in order to answer them more effectively? Let it go, little dude. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Rudel himself reported seeing 2 cm flak bounce off the bellies of Il-2s attacking his airfield. Luftwaffe pilots learned the hard way that if you didn't know what you were doing (shooting the oil cooler) in attacking an Il-2, you could expend your entire ammo load and achieve nothing, leading to one of my favorite anecdotes in which the hotshot Luftwaffe fighter ace comes East, expecting to cut a swathe through the Slavs, but winds up humiliated by a single Il-2 engagement. He complains bitterly of its immunity to his fire, only to be silenced by a laconic "Herr Major, one does not bite a porcupine in the a**!" Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santosdiablo Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 My sock puppet? I dont think so But you replied before I could edit my post here This is what he replied first http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ilyushin_Il-2/Archive_1&oldid=59290469 Then you changed it to this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ilyushin_Il-2/Archive_1&oldid=59297207 This is a better way to view things. I dont use sock puppets since they are not allowed, unlike you I dont break the rules 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painfbat Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 = = =You left out the part where I peeked at his sister in gym class.= = = How's her oil cooler? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Originally posted by Da Beginna: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt: And while it might make sense to put a time-fuze in an 8.8cm round for reasons other than self-destruction, it doesn't for 2cm. Apart from anything else, how would you do the fuze-setting? All the best, John. Dear John, interesting. I'm a lurker since CMBO and that's because my wisdom of weapons and warfare is quite limited. Anyhow, one can learn a lot by reading this forum. What I found out was that the 2 cm ammo came with or without a "Zerleger" ("decomposer"). I think that you are right when you say that these weren't timed fuses but devices for self-destruction of the shell. The following quotation from another forum in German made me want to learn more about the fuses / Zerleger / somefink... "beim abschuß wird durch das beharrungsvermögen des stößels mit nadel und der buchse die spirale in ihrer lage festgelegt. bei nachlassen der Beschleunigug und zunahme der rotation des geschoßes öffnet sich die spirale und gibt die aufschlageinrichtung frei. beim aufschlag wird die membrane eingedrückt und der stößel treibt die nadel indie sprengkapsel.es kommt zur detonation. trifft das geschoß auf kein ziel überwindet mit zunahme der rotation der auslöse-und der ausgleichshebel das drehmoment der drehfeder. beide hebel bewegen sich in pfeilrichtung nach außen bis zum begrenzungsstift. das zusammenwirken desaußlösehebels mit dem ausgleichhebel erfolgt über den am auslösehebel befindlichen stift. die sicherungsfeder wird beim ausschwingen des auslösehebels frei und biegt sich durch die fliehkraft nach außen und entsichert die zerlegeeinrichtung. die vorgespannte feder entspannt sich und schlägt die schlaghülse durch die freigewordene öffnung in der zwischenscheibe auf den bund der nadel, deren spitze in die sprengkapsel getrieben wird. es kommt ebenfalls zur detonation." In short: through setting a spring you can toggle after how much time the shell is going to detonate (if it not smashes in to something before). It reads as if there could be some kind of setable fuse even on these small shells. The small size given there won't be to much of shrapnel but anyway. As I'm interested in this particular issue ... ammo grogs to the rescue. Thanks in advance. [/QB]</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Quite the slanging match cum debate going there! Glad my (uncredited) research was of some use. Invoking Il-2 "aces" without bothering to state their martial achievements seems to me pretty much a waste of article space. Overall, the amount of actual discussion of the Il-2 per se seems to be eclipsed by the more controversial stuff. What does KOSAVE stand for? Judging from the fact it's all caps, I figure it's an acronym. Kills Of Soviet Armored Vehicles (in) Europe, perhaps? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Originally posted by Santosdiablo: I dont use sock puppets since they are not allowed, unlike you I dont break the rules Neither did I, but you're still to dense to grasp it. Go revert it, if it bothers you so much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Beginna Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 [/QB] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Moin Ich war zur Grundi bei der 1./LAR3 in Mengen, danach 12 Monate Fahrer bei der Sicherungsstaffel 'S' beim JaboG34 in Memmingerberg, drauf aufpassen das die Amis ihre Atomwaffen nicht verlieren. Das ist aber schon etwas her (88/89). Alles Gute Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Andreas, Hah, Ich war zu dieser Zeit ein von der verdammenten Amis 87-89, aber mit der schmutzigen Landser, 5/8 Infantry, im Mainz stationiert. Wir hatten keine Atomwaffen, die Grossen und Wichtigen vertrauten uns nicht und richtig. Ich hatte immer Furcht, als meine Innercitygangstersoldaten mit geladenen M-16s bewaffnet waren. Unsere Kriegstellungen waren in Fuldathal; als ich jung war kennte ich da fast alle Haeuser, Huegel, und Biergarten. Das Gegend ist jetzt ohne Amerikaner (und Sowjeten) viel schoener und ruhiger gewesen, aber meiner Meinung ist die Qualitaet des Biers ungeaendert. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Im Fuldatal (the region) oder in Fuldatal (the village near Kassel)? Wir hatten eine amerikanische Spezialeinheit names 'Cobra Force' die eigentlich die A-Waffen bewachen sollten. Die waren aber eher nutzlos. Alles Gute Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Mein Schweinwurst habst eine kleine realpolitische Angst, aber sie nicht etwas mitkommen kann. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 You are Finnish, right? Don't worry, it'll get better. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Originally posted by painfbat: = = =You left out the part where I peeked at his sister in gym class.= = = How's her oil cooler? She's down a quart. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inola Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 This will answer a lot of questions about IL-2. http://www.iremember.ru. I hadn`t seen, if the pilots remembrances were translated, but i will make summary of some articles as soon as have free time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Fuldatal. Wasserkuppe, Thueringerwald, usw. I don't think there's any curing for being Finnish. Once you're Finnish, it's all over, so to speak. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Originally posted by Bigduke6: I don't think there's any curing for being Finnish. Once you're Finnish, it's all over, so to speak. You and Dandelion should start a club... :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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