what units are over/under priced?

[Other Means]

i think BTS have done a great job pricing the units to achieve a balanced game.

but what are the bargains? what's a waste?

i'd say that any of the higher Arty modules are generally over priced for what you get. the same goes for air support. true, both have the ability to turn a game but they're not worth buying because of the gamble.

the T70 though...mmmmm. used propely they're a great buy.

the StuG of course.

any more?

[dieseltaylor]

Valentines- when you need a decent anti-tank gun they are the biz. Handy also that they are mobile and armoured. In 1943 you can really upset the German player who shrugs of the 76.2mm rounds.

[zukkov]

you army pukes make me... uh, well puke! you're always wanting more. you need artillery support, tank support, air support! you want a bargain!? all you really need is a platoon of motivated marines with their weapons at the ready! now hit the dirt and give me 20!(i would've asked for 50, but i know you army pukes couldn't do that many!) :mad:

[SirReal]

I'd say Tigers are underpriced since almost everyone always buys them and never gives a thought to PzIII/IV.

/SirReal

[Other Means]

do i take this to mean that if we PBEM you just want marines? & i'd get Armour, arty & air support?

email's in the profile damp boy.

[M Hofbauer]

zukkov,

regarding your sig, did your dad really land at Normandy with the 101st?

[Nippy]

Originally posted by Other Means:

do i take this to mean that if we PBEM you just want marines? & i'd get Armour, arty & air support?

email's in the profile damp boy.

I'll think you'll have to wait for:

CM:BB (Bataan to Burma) if you want to play as the Marines.

As for overpriced, well, the fact that it costs me points to take T-26s in my force mix is proof enough that something needs to be fixed. I should get extra credit for just thinking about taking them.

[Ex Bellator]

KV tanks in 1941 are waaaaay underpriced, just MHO of course.

[Becket]

Best bang for the buck?

The trench.

[Dirtweasle]

Well if StuGs are underpriced then you are correct the KV is too and the early T-34 is a pretty good bargain as well.

[Redwolf]

You cannot argue that something is too expensive in a timeframe where it lacks opposition. To argue that you would need a dynamic or timeline oriented pricing scheme. A KV is not underpriced once everybody is having a 75mmL/43-48.

I don't find anything particularily underpriced.

But I think APCs are way overpriced. And I don't like the dual-purpose TRPs. There should be bigger TRP areas for the zeroing in of anti-armor shots. They would be more expensive than what we have now, but they would cover something like a portion of a ridgeline. A T-34 can cross a current TRP area faste rthan anyone can shoot at it.

I also think that thin vehicles suffer from the borg spotting so much that they should be made cheaper than they are now. If they carry a decent gun they are pretty expensive, I think the unavoidable game mechanics problem should be taken into account to a bigger degree, discounting the vehicle.

I also find big AT guns overpriced. A PaK43 against an experienced attacker is not at all that hot. At least as long as above TRP problem is not solved. If you would get a decent combo of TRP areas with the PaK43 it could be worth a lot, but as it is now it is overpriced.

As always, I could speculate for hours about the victory point aspect, the knockout points as they are have some pretty rough edges.

[Pzman]

Thats why you use armor cover arcs rather than TRPs for ambushes of armor. Maybe you don't like to use them, but I find them to work well for this purpose.

[Warmaker]

If all my AT weapons are gone and all my panzers are destroyed, then whatever armor the opposition fields is underpriced.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Panzerman:

Thats why you use armor cover arcs rather than TRPs for ambushes of armor. Maybe you don't like to use them, but I find them to work well for this purpose.

Cover arcs raise the hit probability?

That's news to me.

[ August 01, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Pzman]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzerman:

Thats why you use armor cover arcs rather than TRPs for ambushes of armor. Maybe you don't like to use them, but I find them to work well for this purpose.

Cover arcs raise the hit probability?

That's news to me. </font>

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Panzerman:

Thats why you use armor cover arcs rather than TRPs for ambushes of armor. Maybe you don't like to use them, but I find them to work well for this purpose.

depends on the purpose.

not sure what your purpose is, but I am pretty certain redwolf wants to increase hit probability.

if you can do that with a defense arc then you're a better man than anyone else. or a cheater.

edit: oh my, too late, obsolete now.

[ August 01, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[zukkov]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

zukkov,

regarding your sig, did your dad really land at Normandy with the 101st?

well i hope so, or that screaming eagle on his shoulder was a lie. he didn't stay in the 101st his entire carreer though. i recall seeing a 4th ad ring in one of his parafanalia boxes. stupid me, i just never asked him very much about his war experience, but maybe it was better that way. for his sake i mean..

with regards to my comment on marines, i think maybe i've been watching too much mail call. lol...

[CombinedArms]

To get back to unit pricing, my two centavos:

Good buys:

trenches

barbed wire (esp. on small urban maps)

TRPs

75mm infantry guns (both Russian and German--the German 1918 gun is esp. good because it has an effective hc round)

Pak40s and ZISs

Stugs-w/ long gun

KVs and T-34s early war before Axis long guns turn them into so much scrap metal

Dubious buys:

half tracks and other light armor (because they cost significant points and die so fast). I use them when I get 'em in a scenario but avoid buying them...

I tend to favor forces made up almost exclusively of meat and potatos fighters: infantry, good support weapons (HMGs, inf guns, ATGs and 81/82mm mortars), real tanks or assault guns, and arty (on defense adding in some good fortifications--e.g., trenches, barbed wire, TRPs and/or AT mines.) I avoid vehicles (except maybe a truck or two to tow guns) esp. HTs, and light tanks and never buy planes.

I think the T34/85 is very solid buy and am growing increasingly fond of Russian infantry.

BTW, I think Redwolf has a point about borg spotting and light armor. It's just not fast enough to do its job of getting a quick peek and then escaping when every unit on the board instantly picks it up and lets fly...

[Warmaker]

I play alot of '44-'45 scenarios/QBs and diving into '43 on occasion.

For '44-'45 the best bargains:

*Trenches- Well placed defenders inside trenches will help your cause immeasurably.

*TRPs- Accurate firing for the units it applies to. Observers can call artillery much quicker with these. That's big especially with larger caliber artillery or green observers.

*HMG-42 teams- Anchors of defense against infantry. Well priced with fearsome firepower.

*PaK40- Damn, I love those things! It can kill all but the heaviest russian tanks with ease. With a pinch of luck JS-2s can be killed through the front turret. Removing T-34s are no problem.

*T-34/85- I RARELY play as the Soviets but juding from the larger numbers of T-34/85s I presume their pretty cheap as the war goes on. I don't care for their armor since my 75/88s rip through them but their guns are respectable and can wreak havoc on infantry if not removed.

*Panthers- I'm having much more success with these things despite my liking for Tigers. They're expensive but their performance in most situations is great.

*Brummbars- A bit exotic and a bit more costly than StuH'42 (which are pretty good, BTW). You get better protection with the Brummbars due to the sloped front superstructure. The 150mm gun is a killer against infantry and in combination with a generous payload I always see about taking what I can of these things on assaults.

[ August 02, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[CombinedArms]

To get back to unit pricing, my two centavos:

Good buys:

trenches

barbed wire (esp. on small urban maps)

TRPs

75mm infantry guns (both Russian and German--the German 1918 gun is esp. good because it has an effective hc round)

Pak40s and ZISs

Stugs-w/ long gun

KVs and T-34s early war before Axis long guns turn them into so much scrap metal

Dubious buys:

half tracks and other light armor (because they cost significant points and die so fast). I use them when I get 'em in a scenario but avoid buying them...

I tend to favor forces made up almost exclusively of meat and potatos fighters: infantry, good support weapons (HMGs, inf guns, ATGs and 81/82mm mortars), real tanks or assault guns, and arty (on defense adding in some good fortifications--e.g., trenches, barbed wire, TRPs and/or AT mines.) I avoid vehicles (except maybe a truck or two to tow guns) esp. HTs, and light tanks and never buy planes.

I think the T34/85 is very solid buy and am growing increasingly fond of Russian infantry.

BTW, I think Redwolf has a point about borg spotting and light armor. It's just not fast enough to do its job of getting a quick peek and then escaping when every unit on the board instantly picks it up and lets fly...

[Halberdier]

Originally posted by redwolf:

You cannot argue that something is too expensive in a timeframe where it lacks opposition. To argue that you would need a dynamic or timeline oriented pricing scheme. A KV is not underpriced once everybody is having a 75mmL/43-48.

[etc....snipped to save space]

I agree on all points.

Let me just add that the pricing for Mines, Wire, and to a lesser extent TRP's should vary based on map size or QB points. Their cost is much too high for the larger QB's.

I also agree that the cost of airsupport is too high, but only because they are not that reliable. I buy them because I like the variety. I only buy Crack ones when on the attack on larger QB's since they attack earlier and seem to be less likely to clobber a friendly unit. I do not use them on defense since they seem to attack my Hidden Guns and never on small QB's because it does not seem realistic for them to be engaged in that small of an area. I hope that for CMX2 they can interdict Reinforcements and especially interdict artillery.

Cheers!

-gabe-

[Nippy]

*T-34/85- I RARELY play as the Soviets but juding from the larger numbers of T-34/85s I presume their pretty cheap as the war goes on. I don't care for their armor since my 75/88s rip through them but their guns are respectable and can wreak havoc on infantry if not removed.

From mid 44' and on I think the T-34/85 has a negitave rarity while the early moded 76's have around +10 to +30. In real life at this time, the Soviets were refitting the older T-34's to be made into SU-100s.

Overall the T-34/85 is a nice package for the cost, especally the Late model with the fast turret. Plus the (T) rounds that come with it really put the hurt on the larger German tanks.

[Warmaker]

Negative rarity, eh? I play as the late war Axis all the time and I forgot what you meant by negative rarity

[Cambronne]

AIR SUPPORT:Too expensive (my only reason is because you spend yr points on some planes that waay too frequentely are attacking you).

[Warmaker]

Air support in the scope of the usual CM game is a big gamble anyways, esp. in QBs. Let's say the 3-500m seperating your forces. To yourself on the ground that may be quite a distance but for a fast flying aircraft ID'ing friend/foe can be troublesome.

If you do decide to take dice along for the battle (air support) be sure there's a very healthy seperation between you and the enemy. On the defense if you have armor don't move around too much. Those flyboys are itching to claim ground kills even if they don't realize they kill their own on the ground by mistake.

In CMBO while playing as the Germans and fighting off a determined US attack I was getting ready to throw in the towel. The US jabos came in late in the fighting and dropped what had to be a HUUUUUGE bombs in the center of their own men... We're talking a batallion on the attack crossing open terrain with some brush & scattered trees. The destruction was so through that I released my reserve Panzergrenadier platoon to advance past our defensive positions and mop up any broken units and take prisoners. Men strewn about and halftracks destroyed. I rarely pick air support and if I do it has to be at least 2k points for a game and a large map. Let the flyboys have their fun BEFORE you begin any advance, especially with armor.

Oh, and beware green/conscript air support :mad:

P.S.- To bring this reply back to topic I believe the cost for air support is fine. Just be careful with it and it can be quite destructive.