GaryC Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I tried the Von Lauchert historical scenario as German first, against the AI (extreme fog of war). This meeting engagement in the open ground of the steppes was pure butchery for the Russian. The moving German Panther VD tanks with the 75/70 gun were picking up the Russian tanks, mostly T-34 M3 and SU-122, at over 2000 metres with a speed and accuracy that I would expect from an M-1 with modern opticals. I didn't finish the scenario but by the time the Russian lost about 20 tanks, the Germans didn't have a single casualty. Well, I thougth the AI was really dumb on this one so I played the Russian. The most interesting part was when a line of 16 Russian tanks hiding on a reverse slope moved on a hull down position to the advancing German tanks at about 1000 metres. Some of them were slaughtered on the first shot after a few seconds, the rest immediately retreated behind the slope and hardly a shot was fired from the Russian. I did better than the AI though, after losing half of the Russian tanks I managed to kill a Panther! . If the Panther VD 75/70 was really like that, I wonder how the Russian could possibly survive in open ground armor battles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by GaryC: If the Panther VD 75/70 was really like that, I wonder how the Russian could possibly survive in open ground armor battles. They couldn't. The Panther is a nasty, nasty opponent at range. It has very heavy frontal armor, good optics and an excellent gun with high rates of fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by Lumbergh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GaryC: If the Panther VD 75/70 was really like that, I wonder how the Russian could possibly survive in open ground armor battles. They couldn't. The Panther is a nasty, nasty opponent at range. It has very heavy frontal armor, good optics and an excellent gun with high rates of fire. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 GaryC, you just reminded me. I've been having so much fun playing early war popguns I don't know the last time I touched a Panther! I'm going to have to run home and fire up a Panther quickbattle tinight. That's the thing about having 300 different armor types to play with, some vehicles will manage to slip through the cracks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Havermeyer- Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 MikeyD just reminded me... ...prior to the CMBB release I was wondering why I'd want to fight with the small calibre tanks after the monsters of CMBO. But I really enjoy them... ...they allow the infantry to have a chance and make the games more interesting. You can lose your armor without losing the game. Oh, yeah. The Panther is a monster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipez Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Hello, this mission is one of my favourites, with Ruskies... only one time I won the battle with following tactics. In the start take your T34s to center valley as FAST as you (the 3 platoons),and the T-70s.. couple of them might get shot but if you get to the center valley, you just sit there and wait for the Panthers to come close range (fights in there are below 200 meters, T34s have chance to beat Panther). One time I luckily got my SU-152s there too, althought they were shot all the time but luckily Panthers missed them. The 152 MM gun does nasty things to Panther.. Anyway once you get the 3 platoons of tanks there, then you just sit and wait. Your reservers arrive, I waited behind the cliff until Panthers rellod close the valley. Then as they come down, I charge with the Reservers and the result was 15 Panthers knocked out, and I lost about same amount of T34s and T-70s but it was worth it.. Victory.. Second time I played this the Panthers wasted their AP ammo from shooting 3000 meters, hit percentage is not that big from that range.. And when the PAnthers arrived at valley every Panther had ran out of ammo and it was funny to blast every Panther with T-70. Against Human player this is probably impossible to beat the germans there, Panther truly was a great tank.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 No Spoilers.. The scenario was made to show why the Russians adopted the rush forward tactic against the German Heavies. TMU has it correct, rush the creekbed, use the fingers of the creek to the right. Once in the creek bed, the Germans HAVE to close the distance or lose. Time that with the reinforcements and you should win. It can only work two player if the German player has not played the scenario before and has not read any of the threads. If they had, they know they also have to rush the creek bed then there is hell to pay. The battle really happened. von Lauchert demonstrated that the Panther, when used correctly, was a fierce beast. The majority of Panthers lost from his unit before this battle were from hits in the sides. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 rune, This is one of my favorites. Well done. So historically how did it turn out and where can I find a good account of the battle? I have read Kursk by Glantz (as well as several other accounts) but I don't think he goes into detail on this one (not sure though as it has been a while). James 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 (Spoiler Alert) Played the "Von Lauchert" scenario once as Germans vs AI. Moved my Panthers past the stream and waited for the Soviets. The Panthers destroyed about 60 Soviet AFV's, most at ranges well in excess of 1500 meters, including some at 3000 meters, against the loss of one green panther to a lucky shot by a Soviet SP. 4-5 of the Panthers ran out of ammo. Very good scenario to show the dominance of German tanks under ideal conditions (i.e. good visibility, open terrain, no enemy air power ). Off course the AI did a poor job on the attack, committing his AFV's piecemeal and over the open terrain, where the Panthers could pick them off one by one. Looks like a tough scenario to win as the Soviets though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipez Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 It is extremely hard, even when you get 2 platoons of T34s at the center, victory is still not guaranteed. I had to save couple of times, to get more tanks at the middle valley, one of the most challenging maps in my opinion.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Saunders Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Just tried this battle after seeing the thread. I had one Vet Panther take out an SU-152 from 3015 meters on the first shot! Incredible. Yeah this is the kind of map that Panthers will rule on. Nice job Rune. -Sarge 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnL53 Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 I was playing around making the battle of Kolomak -Panthers--a few MK4s and for a total of 18 and about 80 t-34s and Kvs-- the result is the same unless the Russians can close the distance it is a total defeat -- I lose the mk4s but rarely a Panther and the often take out as many as 56 of the attackers-- --at a distance the Panther is tuff 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Originally posted by GaryC: If the Panther VD 75/70 was really like that, I wonder how the Russian could possibly survive in open ground armor battles. I...L...2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMik1 Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 True, the Panther 75/70 was a monster. I played a savage meeting engagement with PBEM and I was the German side. I had one Panther G, 2 Tigers and 2 JagPz. When the Russians attacked in a sea of Red at my troops, I lost both my Tigers, but this one Panther fought like it was no tomorrow. It with the help of some infantry, stalled the Russian assault. It took 3 penetrating hits, lost a crew member and kept on fighting, before getting hit one more time and catching on fire. But this Panzer and crew got a medal for this: 29 Infantry casualties 1 Gun destroyed 4 M3 Scout Cars destroyed 2 SU-85s destroyed 2 T-34/85s M44 destroyed Yeah, it's a monster!! BigMik1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Just gives you a little hint of why the Panther (specifically the version with the IR sight) was considered one of the best, if not the best, tank in the world till the mid 50s. One of the lessons of the Panther that seems to have been lost on modern armor designers is that you don't have to have a big gun you just have to have a good gun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Sgt Goody, I will find the references in the books I got and pass them on, if you don't have the books, let me know and I type it out in an email. I know one of the books was Panzertruppen 2. I don't remember the other off hand and I am at work now, so will have to wait til I get home. Basically von Lauchert was proven right, the Panther was an awesome tank if used correctly. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 I did find this: Lauchert's skill and energy as a Panzer leader caught the attention of such armor notables as Guderian and Eberbach. When Germany developed a new tank to regain its lost superiority on the battlefield, Major Lauchert was chosen to form and train the first two battalions of Panthers. Hitler ordered the delay of the 1943 summer offensive until Lauchert's Panthers arrived to spearhead the southern arm of the attack. Unfortunately, the failure of the commanders whom Lauchert was supporting to familiarize themselves with this new weapon caused the Panther's debut at the Battle of Kursk to be less than decisive. Lauchert continued to command a battle group of Panthers after Kursk, was promoted to Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant Colonel) and eventually was named as the commander of Panzer Regiment 15 of the 11th Panzer Division. While with this unit, he earned the Oak Leaves to his Knight's Cross. from http://members.aol.com/Panzerbaer/lauchert.html Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Perhaps slightly off topic, but a tank vs. tank engagement as in "Von Lauchert" was the exception rather than the rule in WW2, even though they appear to be everyone's (including me) favorite type of scenario in CMBB. From what I have read, the Soviets from 1943 onwards, were smart enough to stay away from this type of engagement and use their tanks in classic Blietzkrieg fashion (i.e 1- smash through a weak part of the german front line; 2- plunge deep in the german rear to cut supply lines; 3- bypass german strongpoints to be mopped up by infantry). German tank attacks as in "Von Lauchert" were usually stopped by anti-tank guns in tank traps and air power. One of the major cause of loss of Panthers/Tigers in WW2 appears to have been destruction by their own crew when they were cut off or ran out of gas. I remember reading something about a British Army study of 16 Panther hulks found in Italy. The study concluded that 8 of the tanks had been destroyed by military action and the other 8 were destroyed by their own crew when they ran out of gas. It seems running out of gas was a bigger threat to Panthers than were Soviet tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Phosphorus Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Originally posted by sGTGoody: One of the lessons of the Panther that seems to have been lost on modern armor designers is that you don't have to have a big gun you just have to have a good gun. Tanks are supposed to be able to engage soft targets as well. 75mm is a little too weak for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 rune, thanks for the info. White Phosphorus, the primary purpose of the tank's main gun was to engage other tanks. This, of course, evolved during the war as the role of the tank evolved. You don't need a large explosion to deal with infantry or unarmored vehicles, a machine gun or two is much more effective. The Panther's 75/70 was able to kill anything on the battlefield and it could carry more rounds than the larger gunned tanks which further increased the deadliness of the vehicle. James 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Originally posted by JC_Hare: German tank attacks as in "Von Lauchert" were usually stopped by anti-tank guns in tank traps and air power.Remember that this was not always available on the Eastern Front. Situations such as "Von Lauchert" show the response to German counter attacks rather than assaults on fixed defenses. Also the Russians didn't enjoy the type of air supremecy that the Anglo-American forces did till very late in the war. You are right though in saying that the Russians were smart enough to avoid situations like this when they could. They knew better than to use their equipment outside its optimum capabilities. One of the major cause of loss of Panthers/Tigers in WW2 appears to have been destruction by their own crew when they were cut off or ran out of gas. Of course this points to the fact that while Germany may have been very good in the tactical arena, they really stank on the strategic one. James [ February 28, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: sGTGoody ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 The Panther (Panzerkampfwagen 5) could penetrate 140mm armour at a range of 2000m... (source http://balsi.de/pantherversa.htm ) Another good example for a "Panther-fight" under the right conditions : In september 13th, 1943 seven Panther-tanks of the 2nd SS Panzerregiment "Das Reich" under the command of Hauptsturmführer Holzer engaged 70 (!) T-34 tanks near Kolomak. After 20 minutes of fierce fighting, 28 russian tanks were destroyed, and the other russians retreated hastily. In july 28./ 29. 1944, the 2nd battalion of the 5th Panzerregiment of the 5th SS Panzerdivision "Wiking" engaged 107 russian tanks, mostly T-34's and some Shermans. During this battle, 80 percent of the russian tanks were knocked out / destroyed, one Panzer IV and 5 Panther were destroyed. The most notable Panther ace was SS-Oberscharfuehrer Ernst Barkmann ( http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen5.htm ) from 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich". His actions in Western Europe, especially in Normandy and Ardennes earned him the Knight's Cross. sources http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm http://www.wehrtechnik.net/wehrtechnik/der_panther_i.html With friendly greetings, Trommelfeuer P.S. Sorry for my bad english, I'm a CMBB newbie (I already love it!) and just wanted to post something... [ March 02, 2003, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Trommelfeuer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Could you please put *******SPOILER****** close to the scenario names??? thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Osage Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I have been playing this scenario in a variety of different ways. Yesterday, I decided upon a test. How would the scenario play out if the Russians could use their best medium tank--the T-44 aganist the Panther? So I changed the date of the scenario to July 1945. As best I could I selected the same number and quality of tanks and troops as the Germans and I also had them appear on the map at the same time. Guess what---the Russian tanks won. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 ***SPOILER*** Yap, I defeated Lauchert's Panthers, (I changed nothing in the scenario) & had great fun in winning this battle for the russian side 75% : 25%...if three of my SU-152 & all four SU-122 hadn't reached the "ravine" I would have been lost...but they did and together with the reserve troops doing "shoot & scoot" 1.500m behind the frontline they managed to slow down & finally crush the enemy advance. Hard job, but it had to be done.. Have a look http://www.cdv-board.de/deutsch/showthread.php?s=33614612ae585dd4f9a1f09bc82c06e7&threadid=5605&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 for more details please, I'm too tired right now to rewrite it all in english....forgive me... With friendly greetings, Trommelfeuer [ March 15, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Trommelfeuer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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