Correct use of the Hornisse

[Willy]

Hello all, this is my first post! I'm a noob to CMBB (got it this past X-mas) but I've played wargames since AH's Panzerblitz. My question is regarding the scenario "Hornet's nest" on the CD. I have no luck with this one as German ... I hide my Hornissen behind the hill on my end of the map and engage the Russian armoured hoarde at long range using the "scoot and shoot"command and my best estimate of hull down positions, but they always seem to miss and get toasted by a ton of 76mm return fire in reply. The long range effectiveness of the Panzerjagers doesn't seem to be there ... at best I can get a 1 to 1 kill ratio at these long ranges vs the T-34's. Whassup! am I missing a vital tactical trick here ...

[Joachim]

In RL, SP ATGs worked with superior spotting, stealth and local odds. If they had superior optics and would hit at long ranges what they saw while the enemy could not see or hit them - great.

Now in CM, you have borg spotting. Superior optics are poorly modelled - you spot better, but don't hit much better. Now with borg spotting, this is not that much of an advantage for better optics. While in RL rangefinders or the flat trajecotry of the 88 helped first shot hits, shoot and scoot does not work as well in CM. Hunt to reach firing positions in second 45, getting of 2-3 shots and then reverse in the next turn is usually better (not with that scenario).

I do not like that scenario because the Axis has no chance to achieve stealth - it may be historic, but does not take into account the problems of the current CM engine. Using Hornissen in CM is only possible with keyholes, reverse slopes and room to maneuver. If you want to get the real feeling of Hornissen, create a huge map. Select terrain features comparable to the map in the scenario, but at least (!) three times as wide. A ridgeline and some foothills on the german side, allowing for frontal cover when doing flank shots and keyhole positions.

Setup zones for the tanks and Hornissen are restricted to the center third of the map. Flags in the German center. The Hornissen now have enough time to spread out to the flanks to set up ambushes there and pick off single tanks from the sides. But they must maneuver to simulate that they don't know the exact point of attack for the Soviets.

To reduce borg spotting for the Soviets remove Soviet infantry from the game and give the Germans several sharpshooters and MGs to button up the Soviets. Maybe add some rolling terrain on the Soviet side. Those tanks in a depression can't see the Hornissen and can't shoot back.

Except for all this ranting, CM is a good game and the scen has a good idea. But I guess while designing it the shortcomings of CMBB where not known extensively. My experience with SP ATGS in CMBB is probably much better now than that of the designer when he did the scenario. I doubt I would have done it better then.

Gruß

Joachim

[ February 04, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[Willy]

Thanks for the reply! I was getting a little frustrated ... Albert Ernst supposedly commands the Hornisse truppe in this scenario, he's a 'real life' Panzerjager ace, but in my game he dies in the first turn of combat (after missing his initial few shots!). I was beginning to think I was making some big mistake with my gameplay. I've tried this one a few different ways, but I always get a draw (because the AI Russkies are too slow in reaching the flag before the time limit...)

[JasonC]

I haven't played it, but I've looked at it from the German side. I assume I don't need to say "spoiler" for so old a scenario.

If you just go up on the crest you will lose. But you have other options and other assets.

1 - you have 175 rounds of 81mm from an FO. You can use them for smoke to mask portions of the enemy tank force, while taking on selected, other portions.

2 - you have 2 weak on map guns. Admittedly they will only hurt T-34s at around 500 yards (the 75 leIG has HEAT, but isn't accurate beyond about that. The 50mm has all of 2 rounds of APCR). But they mean your infantry position is not simply defenseless against tanks.

3 - the Russians have a long way to come - 2 km - and not much time to do it. You have 900 points of flags where you are. There are only 500 on the approach route. Keeping the Russians from reaching the nearest 2 is a large success. You don't need to kill every enemy tank.

4 - you have numerous TRPs. Think of them as "boresights" for the Nashorns, not arty registration points. The one by the burning building is particularly obvious this way. Initial round hit probability is vastly higher when shooting at a target right next to a TRP.

5 - you could set up to hit them at fully 2 km, right as they enter the board. This might make a piecemeal engagement possible, before they all form up and get closer.

6 - you have infantry to spot for your Nashorns, so you should nearly always know what you will be up against next turn. If it looks like too much, just don't engage.

The number one issue would appear to be "stay off the crest". Nashorns want limited LOS, not the widest possible. They only point and shoot in one direction; they only ever want one target at a time.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by JasonC:

4 - you have numerous TRPs. Think of them as "boresights" for the Nashorns, not arty registration points. The one by the burning building is particularly obvious this way. Initial round hit probability is vastly higher when shooting at a target right next to a TRP.

This only works if the gun (or in this case Nashorn) hasn't moved from its starting position though, right? I tried that the first time I played the scenario and the German player can't afford to place his Nashorns anywhere that they can get seen. I put one well back in scattered trees on the far left flank and it was still spotted immediately and killed on the first turn.

I may not have been diligent enough in searching for keyhole positions on this map, but I couldn't find any to speak of. Two things I felt strongly effected the play of this scenario. One was that borg spotting meant that any Nashorn revealing itself for more than a very few seconds came immediately under fire from 3-5 tanks, even though the latter were buttoned up. The other was that the Soviet gunnery seemed awfully good, scoring hits and kills on even hull-down Nashorns with their first or second shot in a pretty consistent fashion. Using shoot & scoot, I could keep some of them alive for as much as 10 turns. Their score at best was 2-5 kills before they themselves were killed. A couple got no kills at all.

About the only thing they accomplish is delaying the Soviet armor so that it does not get in position to attack the German infantry positions (which should be well back in the woods so that the Soviet tanks can't stand off and shoot them up) before the end of the game. One other thing I did was to use my mortar spotter to strip the tank riders off the armor so that they have to walk all the way to the battle. They won't have time to get there. The infantry in the halftracks will usually hang back and try to get out of sight when the Nashorns start shooting. And you might get lucky and drop a mortar bomb inside one if they don't.

Michael

[Kondor99]

Yeah, the "accuracy" of the optics on the Hornisse/Nashorn looks to be seriously off. How did this slip through playtesting? I have since gone back to look at the accuacy of the various German guns and it just doesn't "feel" right compared to, say, Steel Panthers: WaW.

I hate to say it, but this kind of ruins a lot of the appeal of the game to me. How realistic is it that a T-34 with a green crew is scoring as many hits at 2000m as an Elite Nashorn with optics designed to track aircraft?

Crap: I really like this game, but this sucks.

[junk2drive]

i'm sure you found shortcomings in spwaw also. you learn to play with them, not against them. there are plenty of battles (scenarios) that are enjoyable. learn the good and the bad and play the game. jmho.

[Redwolf]

I'm too lazy to re-list the limits of presighting and zeroing in in CM, but to get a taste plaster the enemy zone with TRPs, one next to the other.

On top of that, absolute spotting means that you get a lot more return fire than in reality.

The combination of low hit probability and absolute spotting is particularly distorting since now the tank who didn't die also shoot at you from situations where they historically maybe wouldn't, or would start firing back much later.

[Pyewacket]

just played the scenario, and I think it's good. It's possible to handle all those Russians tanks. I think it's a matter of setup. Some ideas:

1. don't use the hill (or crest) for the Nashorns

2. instead look for a position where the Russian tanks have to move into a zone where you can shoot at them.

3. this zone should be as far away from you as possible to realize the advatage of the long range accuracy of the Nashorn.

4. use arty to destroy the HT (or least force a traffic jam or so)

5. take the second Nashorn platoon to support the first (maybe your first platoon was setup on your right flank behind the trees to shoot a little bit diagonal behind the village (towns), then bring these 2nd ptn in position to shoot at the other half of the map, in this case at the right side of the map).

I think it's a good scenario for learning how to defend with tanks/guns ...

(Willy: I saved the game, if you want to get some ideas just tell me...)

[Mr. Tittles]

This is a close up crop of the gunner's side of the 8.8cm gun again, this time focusing on the overhead hatch and empty sight bracket for the SflZF1a/Rblf36 direct/indirect sight. This was the same excellent sight design used in the later versions of the StuG III, StuG IV, Jagdpz IV, as well as the Hetzer. It is a monocular 5X sight with an eight degree field of view and allows both indirect and direct firing solutions.

This is from afv interior website. Its in regards to Elephant gunners sight. I would assume that the Hornet also used this sight?

The Hornet's used stereoscopic range finders like the StuGs did. See the Pantherfibel thread for more on these.

On the left side of this pic, you will see part of a scissor scope stereorangefinder.

[ August 05, 2004, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The most important part of the AP gunnery equation is getting the range. The 'accuracy' of the whole Hornet system hinges on this.

The 88L71 is actually much more precise than the ability of most crews to guage the range. As an example, the gun could probably score multiple hits against a tank sized target at 1400 m. That is, it is repeatable. Once the AP was on target, and the target does not move, successive hits can be obtained.

But a crew with just ordinary binoculars or gunners sights could not judge range at 1400m to actually be 1400m most of the time. They are the wildcard in the equation.

Thats where a device like a SF (scissors-scope) stereoscopic rangefinder closes the loop. It could give the Hornet crew the ability to measure the range within acceptable tolerances so that it matches the guns performance. Given the long range penetration of this weapon, having these SF was critical. Even if just a Hornet zug commander had them, and could relay range data via radio, it would make a big difference. They are also dual purpose and are excellent spotting scopes so that misses could be adjusted onto target. This further extends the crews observation and extends the killing ability of the weapon into its non-repeatable range. It may take more shots but kills out to 2500+m can be obtained.

In Panzer Aces, Albert Earnst is calling out some long range shots. Even out to 4000m (took a few rounds but a kill is made). He is described as using these SF. He later went on to command Jagdtiger (which had SF also) and also had some extreme range success.

[ August 06, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Kondor99]

Well, this is a very interesting technical discussion, but I think it merely confirms what we all noticed, which is that the Hornisse system is remarkably ineffective vs. what we know about it historically.

Standing Off at 2500m hull-down behind a ridgeline is what this thing was made for. It was an overall failure b/c that ideal situation didn't often occur.

So, the question remains...Will the developers address this?

[Bogdan]

Any detailled informations about the german stereoscopic range finder ? Its use, accuracy, limit of employment ?

I can figure out how it works, as I found some sources about naval warfare but I didn't find technical informations about land combat.

Also, I suppose that the accuracy of such a machine at long range is directly linked to the possible "space" between the two main lenses. The more the two arms are spread, the more fine the range can be calculated.

But, in a correct use, I think that a rangefinder can be very accurate, even at long distances. One of the possible limits would be the eyes of the operator and his brain ability to correctly merge and analyze a 3D image.

Anyway, some datas would be very interesting

[Redwolf]

The problem is not the base hit probability in CM, it is very much in line with what historic account give.

However, what is less well modeled in CM is zeroing in on moving targets (they leave the zeroed in area too easily), is that you cannot go back to a reference point you already shot at and the zeroed in area is much too small.

And pre-sighted defensive AT gunnery is only supported by the much too small TRPs.

I don't think the stereoscopic rangefinders are a big advantage over firing a few test shots while the enemy didn't arrive yet. You wouldn't use them in an actual fight, although they would be useful in an ambush situation and of course save ammunition.

[flamingknives]

Also, I suppose that the accuracy of such a machine at long range is directly linked to the possible "space" between the two main lenses. The more the two arms are spread, the more fine the range can be calculated.

Yup. Mechanically, the resolution of a coincident rangefinder is the same regardless of where the objective lenses are, but the further apart they are, the more apparent it is that the two images are different, so the more accurately the operator can get the correct convergence point.

I might have some data on the one mounted on the post-war Conqueror somewhere, but I do recall the recommended firing procedure:

The commander (who had the rangefinder) would measure the range. The Gunner would then fire two shots, one at +200yds and one at -200yds range setting.

Engagement ranges for the Conqueror were out to 3000yds, but the smoke and flash from the main gun prevented fall of shot observation, hence the procedure.

[Jack Carr]

I got cooked as well playing this scenario as the Germans. After reading Joachim's response to your post, his observations and advice sound very logical.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Kondor99:

Will the developers address this?

The answer remains: no.

[Mr. Tittles]

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009942

Heres another thread that addresses these issues.

Read Panzer Aces-Kurowski for some descriptions of this battle. Its in paperback by Ballantine books.

I am not sure if CMBB is slotted to be patched again. My feeling is that CMAK is going to get patched and its on to new business.

[YankeeDog]

I agree with Redwolf; the problem is less with undermodeling of the Hornisse's sights (though they may be a bit undermodeled), and more with the undermodeling of the accuracy bonus AT assets (vehicle-mounted or not) have in a prepared defense.

IRL, those Hornisse crews would be using every minute they had before up until the Russian tanks came into view to carefully measure the distance to prominent terrain features within the expected engagement area. This would make it much easier for them to judge range to enemy tanks.

The only way you can come close to modeling this kind of advance ranging preparation in CM is to increase the experience level of the Hornisse crews, which will give them advantages other than accuracy you don't necessarily want. With ATGs, you can give a commanding HQ unit a double combat bonus to increase accuracy and ROF, but unfortunately there are not combat bonuses for AFVs. TRPs don't give the desired effect since their area of effect is too small, and also AFV lose their use once they move. IRL, a hornisse doesn't suddenly forget that it's 1200 meters to the top of the next rise if they reverse 20 meters back in to defilade, and then pop back up into hull down for another shot a few meters away from their first shooting position.

I also agree that borg spotting and the speed with which (especially buttoned) tanks recognize and engage new threats is also a big part of the problem.

Cheers,

YD

[Mr. Tittles]

Actually in the descriptions in Panzer Aces of Albert Earnst, he seems to be a fire-fighter rushing about and meeting enemy threats. He doesnt wait for the battle to come to him. In his first battle, he meets the enemy threatening to over run an infantry unit and takes vehicles under fire at 1800+m range.

[YankeeDog]

In re this particular incident, you may be right. It's been a while since I read Kurowski's (or anybody else's) account of it. In general, though, I think it would be a dramatic improvement if defensive units could somehow gain some kind of "pre-ranged" bonus. I honestly have no idea how this could be implemented, but it would be a really cool thing to have in the game.

As a side note, I find Kurowski virtually worthless as as source for the details as to exactly how tactical engagements went down. Not to put down the book -- it's a fun read -- but he's prone to quite a bit of poetic license and I'm never quite sure what in his descriptions is actual fact, and what is hyperbole intended to make for a more interesting read.

Cheers,

YD

[dieseltaylor]

Hornet's Nest

Intrigued by the discussion I tried it twice - aborted the first on turn 7 when finding craters do not make much odds and losing a Nashorn. Game 2 won 74-26 losing my most obvious Nashorn, a gun, the bunker and 1 man killed ,5 wounded.

Ten vehicles killed 73 cas and 22 killed. It seems toi me that the TD's are really upmarket snipers and the value comes from staying alive but keeping the enemy nervous by the occassional shoot and scoot by all the late arriving Nashes. The mortar smoke did absolutely nothing for me but may bear some thinking about.

[Pyewacket]

One question:

How was the Nashorn used historical? Did they do something like shoot and scout, or any other complicated manouver? When I played the scenario I thought this is a gun and it should be used as one, means place it somewhere and that's it. I only would start to move it, when it came into trouble...

[dieseltaylor]

Historically I cannot give you chapter and verse, but a lightly armoued open topped vehicle with an expensive gun mounted on it would surely be kept well out of harms way. That is you need to have something distracting and dangerous between you and the enemy. German tanks , ATG's , infantry etc

because the Hornet/ Nashorn ,494 built, is a big easily knocked out target.

In the terms of a thirty minute battle I would expect the enemy to call up some artillery or mortars if they are close enough to spot your position so leaving them in one place could be a mistake. Remember to provide some AA unless you are of the fraternity who ban them from games when the weather is good enough to fly.

I have used them to good effect in ME's and seen an opponent lose one in the first two turns of an ME where it was set up to dominate the battlefield - shot up by a fighter.

[Kondor99]

As a side note, if you want to play a great version of this battle, you can do so in a scenario in the game "Panzer Front" for the Dreamcast (and PS1).

That version really captures the essence of the battle as Ernst and his Hornisse repeatedly rush to defiladed positions to blunt each successive Soviet thrust (they were badly coordinated - similar to what happened later at the Oder where a scratch Panzer "division" pulled off the same trick on a grand scale).

What makes it fun is using your skill at repeatedly setting up ambush positions (quickly!) without getting nailed as you temporarily expose yourself to do so.

And...you will need to be a crack shot just like Ernst and his crew to get the job done. Super-Highly recommended!

PS - Panzer Front only came out in Japan for the Dreamcast, so you need to get an *ahem* backup copy to get it to work in you USA Dreamcast.