How Grog are you? German Opel

[Commissar]

Here is a question that I doubt most here could answer. On NPR's "Car Talk" radio show, there was some German who called in about a question concerning the old German Opel truck. Back when he was younger and fleeing the Russians (seemed to be a popular past time in '45 Germany), he recalls riding in a German Opel truck that ran on wood chips. That's right, wood chips. Apparently this modified truck could use this for fuel instead of regular gas. His question was how in the world were they ever able to do this? Now, he swears that he isn't making this up and that the truck indeed did not run on gas but on wood chips. Anyone here have a clue how this could be possible with 1945 technology (let's assume this guy wasn't hitting the schnapps as well)?

[ January 28, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[White Phosphorus]

It had it's own fuel synthesizer.

[Tigrii]

I've heard of T-34s running on wood fuel. :confused:

[YankeeDog]

I've read about this before. It's been years, but this is what I remember:

During the later stages of WWII, Germany was so desperately short of petroleum that some non-combat vehicles were converted to work with alternative souces of fuel. From what I've read, it involved a small two-wheeled trailer that was towed behind the vehicle. In the accounts I remember, the device is fueled by coal, but I suppose wood chips might work as well.

Anyway, somehow the device extracted volatile fumes from the coal and/or wood, I suspect by heating the fuel in a very low oxygen environment. It may well have used the fuel itself to provide the heat - IOW, it burned some of the coal/wood in order to heat the rest of it and cause it to emit volatile gases.

The volatile gases were then ported (I assume by pipe or hose) into the carburator, and used to power in internal combustion engine. From what little I know about ICE engineering, this would be much more likely to work with a diesel engine than a gasoline one, but I can't say for sure what kind of engine was used.

In addition to being extremely inefficient, apparently these devices were smelly and there was a substantial drop in the power output of the engine. It might get a truck or passenger car along a road at modest speed, but it's not going to get a 50-ton tank anywhere. . .

Again, the above description of how the device worked is merely semi-educated conjecture on my part. The part about there being a towed trailer that somehow extracted usable fuel for an ICE from coal I am sure of.

So, how Grog am I?

Cheers,

YD

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Tigrii:

I've heard of T-34s running on wood fuel. :confused:

This is also a possibility. Internal Combustion Engines can be made to run on alcohol. It takes extensive modification (i.e, you can't just drop alcohol into your gasoline-powered car and drive off), and there are definite disadvantages. For one thing, alcohol evaporates even more easily than gasoline, so you tend to lose a lot of fuel to evaporation. Actually, Formula 1 racing cars use alcohol-based fuels today.

So you can theoretically create fuel for an ICE engine from almost any organic product that will break down into an alcohol, including grains, potatoes, sugars (and by extension anything from which sugar can be derived), and wood. The alcohol derived from wood is Methyl Alcohol which, incidentally, is highly poisonous - drinking even a small amount will make you blind, and any substantial amount will kill you.

So it's also possible that the truck wasn't literally fueled by wood chips, but rather on Methyl Alcohol derived from wood chips. This could easily be confused in the childhood memories of an old man remembering his experiences during the war.

Cheers,

YD

[ January 28, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: YankeeDog ]

[manchildstein (ii)]

just so you know the old guy probably wasn't off his rocker:

--Most of the truck transports for the Grenadiers were either destroyed or

broken down.The few trucks that were still operational were wood-gas and

coal-gas powered vehicles--

from:

http://spearhead1944.com/gerpg/ger111.htm

[ParaBellum]

The "Holzgaser" was not only used in Germany during WWII but also in a lot of occupied countries where gasoline for private use was hard to find.

They were used in quite some european countries up to the 50's in cars, tucks and even buses.

It was far from being an exotic exception in these days.

Edited for schpelling...

[ January 28, 2003, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Michael Dorosh]

This is nothing new, Commissar.

Incidentally, wood fibre was used heavily in the construction of uniform cloth in the later war years as well.

[Bruno Weiss]

With the expected impending rise in fuel prices you may find yourself driving a Hozgaser pretty soon.

[Cpl Carrot]

Governments tend to get upset when people run their cars on something other than gas. All that tax revenue they loose I suppose

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Cpl Carrot:

Governments tend to get upset when people run their cars on something other than gas. All that tax revenue they loose I suppose

Actually, the US Government provides considerable funding and tax incentives for petroleum alternative research - there is nothing the US would like better than be free of reliance on the Middle East for Oil.

Some of you may remember the U.S.'s brief (and rather unsuccessful) attempt to augment gasoline with ethanol (corn alcohol) in the 1970s. . .

What the US Government (and people) have so far been unwilling to do is cut down on energy consumption by doing things like driving smaller, lower performance cars and the like.

Here in the US, the attitude seems to be, "If you can give me an SUV the size of an MBT that doesn't burn petroleum and could still pull that 2 ton trailer I don't actually have, great. But in the meantime I'm fillin' up that 40-gallon tank with OPEC's finest as often as I need to. . ."

Cheers,

YD

[Leit]

Originally posted by Tigrii:

I've heard of T-34s running on wood fuel. :confused:

Modern russian tanks can use even sunflower-seed oil (not too long ofcourse). Can't say definately about t-34 now. I'll look threw t-34 manual and will say later, to check was it accepted by engeneers to use it on ordinary tanks.

[ January 29, 2003, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Leit ]

[SgtMuhammed]

I saw a report on some Russian farmers who still use wood-gas tractors. Not very efficient but hey you do what you have to.

Another quick point, Ethanol is still there. After all the hype died down the government just started putting it in gasoline and not making a big deal about it.

Most modern diesel engines can run on nearly anything that will burn with a few adjustments. The M1 doesn't even need to be adjusted but it doesn't get very good milage on, say, red wine.

[Molotov Cocktail]

The Holzgaser (Holz=wood)was also common during war in Finland (unoccupied country). Maybe in civilian cars it was more common than petroleum.

Finnish term for Holzgaser is häkäpönttö .

häkä=carbon monoxide,coal gas

pönttö=bin

Häkäpönttö uses pieces of wood as it's fuel. Burning wood pieces make wood gas. Wood gas is used by the car engine thus the name häkäpönttö.

I did not find any wartime pictures of häkäpönttö cars from the net, I have seen some pictures about them in Finnish books, but know I don't remember in which books.

I found only one modern day Finnish picture from the net.

One Finnish man installed häkäpönttö to French Renault (1980) car.

He made himself the häkäpönttö (Holzgaser)

Here is the picture

Here is also article about the car, but sorry it's in Finnish

Häkäpönttö car

This Renault car is hybrid because it's also uses petroleum (bensa or bensiini in finnish)system and häkäpönttö system. There is to gas pedals in the car one for petroleum another for häkäpönttö.

With häkäpönttö Renault's top speed is 70 km/h (43 mph). Car's engine is 1.3 liter. With 2 liter engine car's top speed could be considerably over 100 km/h (62 mph).

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Mmmmm....very stylish conversion that. Who needs rear spoilers, side skirts and mag wheels when you can have your very own Holzgaser unit taking up the entire boot space.

:eek:

Regards

Jim R.

[Engel]

Old picture of a Finnish tractor with wood carburator:

http://www.kurkijoki.fi/dia/c1ec1/_653.jpg

More about wood carburators:

http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/contents.shtml

[Tero]

And more Finnish links:

from

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/sevain/

[ January 29, 2003, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

Another quick point, Ethanol is still there. After all the hype died down the government just started putting it in gasoline and not making a big deal about it.

Most modern diesel engines can run on nearly anything that will burn with a few adjustments. The M1 doesn't even need to be adjusted but it doesn't get very good milage on, say, red wine.

Yes, there is still Enthanol in gasoline sold in the US. However the percentage is much lower than it was during the experiments in the late 70s - they had to tone it down because it affected performance and emissions.

And, yes, the M1 can run on just about any liquid that's flammable enough, including Gasoline, Kerosene, Alcohol, etc. It's a bit of a different case, though - it uses a gas turbine engine, which isn't an internal combustion engine at all. It actually has more in common with a Jet engine than it does a diesel engine.

Cheers,

YD

[Bruno Weiss]

YankeeDog wrote:

...there is nothing the US would like better than be free of reliance on the Middle East for Oil.

If you mean those of us who pay for fuel then your right, but if you mean as a true US policy goal then I wouldn't agree. The actions don't match the retoric. Far too lucrative a business for those in power to turn away from.

[Commissar]

BTW, here is the original call from where my question arrives from:

http://cartalk.cars.com/Radio/Back-Tracks/Audio/RA/ctm200304.ram

[ZealotBurner]

I have nothing to add to this unfortunately, I just wanted to say I have frequented many game forums in my life and hated all of them, until I found this one. Threads like this are the reason. Someone asks quite possibly the most obscure question I can imagine. There are not 1 or 2 responses but a ton of info starts flowing. On all aspects of the questions, with helpful links, pictures, and not ONE stupid response. Until this one of course. :]

[SgtMuhammed]

We usually save the stupid responses for the stupid threads. Look around you will find them.

[ichadwick]

Ethanol is still sold in Canada. Several gas stations offer a mixed blend gasoline (part from dino oil, part from corn oil). There are many propane powered vehicles and even a few methane powered ones around.

That's many as in "more than one" not many as in "gee we just ran out of propane for your barbeque, mister, there's been such a demand from all these cars this week!" You see a lot of propane taxis in Toronto and big cities, fewer outside urban areas. Mostly to do with availability of fuel and the requirements of the feed nozzle I think.

I watched an interesting program on TV where a creative guy rigged a diesel engine to run on old oil from restaurant fat fryers. Low emissions, but they smelled of french fries!

I'm waiting for the ultimate Canadian vehicle, one that runs on maple syrup and beer.

[Nidan1]

If any of you saw President Bush's speech the other night, he talked about Hydrogen powered cars. Interesting concept, I wonder who will build them? With all the hot air wafting out of Washington lately, maybe we should build engines that run on that.

[Bruno Weiss]

Ya'll should have been here a few years ago when all these things were discussed for the first time. There were some real good responses then.