mrcoffee Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 If you play the German side, your outnumbered troops end up attacking up a hill against a heavily entrenched (read--trench system) enemy that has a couple of SMG squads. There's also barb wire and mine systems. Anyone win this one against the computer? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluefish Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 You should really use a spoiler alert when posting about scenarios... ...but yeah, I marched my boys into a bloodbath also. By the way, you'd probably get a better responce if you posted in the scenario section of the forum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 That darned scenario's become notorious! There have even been rumors of the author worshipping the Dark Lord! :eek: If you find it a tough nut to crack you certainly aren't alone. I can't help much as I've never got as far in that particular scenario as I wanted. CM isn't like most computer games. There isn't really a 'secret' to ferret out in order to get through a level. You're presented with a tactical situation and maybe you win the fight and maybe you don't. Sometimes the scenario's designed just to ilustrate how tough a situation can get! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I think it was produced for all those people who complain that playing the AI is too easy . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 That scenario is an example of why recon troops are not outfitted to take on an entrenched enemy. Realistically the division would be throwing away its eyes and ears to achieve an objective properly left to the grenadier batallions and artillery. Recon troops are intended to screen flanks, probe ahead, and discern enemy locations and intentions - not to do direct, frontal assaults against dug in troops. The scenario is practically unwinnable unless you get lucky. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chipaev Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I usually play that level with newbies as the soviets to teach them good defensive tactics and so far I haven't won once as the germans, not even close. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergerbitz Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I've been trying to do win that one (as the Axis, of course) for over a year. It's a toughie. Hm. I just tried to do a search for it and couldn't find any mention of it. I know we discussed it to death last summer...didn't we? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 The force ratio is backwards. It is a probe but with the attacker having 3 to the defenders 4, odds-wise. If you want to balance it and keep the tactical situation, drop the recon platoon and one 82mm mortar from the Russian OOB. Give the Germans a third recon platoon, a second 75mm infantry gun, and a 105mm FO. Vets, like the rest. That gives 4:3 odds favor the attackers instead of favor the defenders. As is, it is just broken. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 But, but, but: what would Jesus do? I think he, as a crafty leader, would have understood that it is honourable to acknowledge that the primary mission of recon troops is to recon. But I doubt Jesus would play anything by Death. So there, blame it on yourself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus1268 Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Well, it's a relief to know others have been having as much grief with this scenario as I am! I've tried this no less then four times, germans against the AI, the best I've managed is making it into front trench line... with not a hope of progressing any further....very disheartening... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Originally posted by Firefly: I think it was produced for all those people who complain that playing the AI is too easy . LOL! Good one! I got my head handed to me the first time I played it as well. I have never gone back to that horrible place since then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Carr Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I designed a scenario that is a little easier on the German attacker but similar in style to "Cemetary Hill". It can be found at the Scenario Depot: http://www.dragonlair.net/combatmission/ It's called "Defending the Dead". Check it out if you get the chance, under CMBB scenarios. I still like to go back and play it myself from time to time. I have never won it because I always run out of time before reaching the single objective. One thing that I thought I did well when I designed it was the map. The map is really neat. If any of you download and play it, let me know what you thought or leave a review on the site. Thanks folks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Originally posted by JasonC: That gives 4:3 odds favor the attackers instead of favor the defenders. As is, it is just broken. Ah Jason, the wonder judge of history. Well no it is not - broken that is. Unlike you, I am in a position to make that judgement. So, with that out of the way, yes it is very tough, and probably a bit tougher than planned for. But that was the intention (Edit: to have it tough, not tougher than planned for, that was obviously not the intention - just thought I'd make that clear, you never know these days). In the scenario, it is IMO a perfectly valid choice to back off and cancel the attack. It is also the smart thing to do from a force preservation perspective. But that behaviour is not rewarded in CM, so it makes no sense, and people try to really break it. But then again, that happened in real life. [ March 26, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 If you were a German recon company commander doing some probing ahead of the division, which of these approaches to the situation at hand would you use: A) There could be anything from a platoon up to a battalion up there on that hill, so I'd better move carefully ahead and pull back if it gets too hot, or Okay, this battle is of the type X, so I have a force Y times larger than my enemy has. Even if this situation looks tough, I'm sure the Russkies will break if I pull the correct strings, because this scenario has been properly play tested for balance. Is your answer "A"? You silly monkey, you got it wrong! Everybody knows that WW2 was a string of puzzle-type situations carefully fixed so that the commanders on both sides would have near equal chances to win. Otherwise everybody would have grown tired of war very soon! (And yes, it is a nice church in the card. Pity there aren't that high bell towers in CM.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 There is a variant to Type A, one that Landsers used to describe as 'Halsschmerzen' (throat infection = yearning for the Ritterkreuz on the part of their commander), and that is embodied in the German phrase 'Viel Feind, viel Ehr.' (Many enemies - much honour). I leave it up to the reader to figure it out. BTW - in playtesting the scenario came in as barely winnable, and very tough. That is of course playtesting with a very small group of often very experienced players, who also had gotten used to the CMBO/CMBB changes at the time they tested it. Clearly, if you pick up CMBB with no prior knowledge of the game, or expecting it to work like CMBO, or indeed you are not a very experienced player, you stand little to no chance of winning it. [ March 26, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus1268 Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I definatly found that one out the hard way!! Oh well, back to the drawing board.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergerbitz Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Another fun small battle is Gefechtsaufklarung (in CMBB)...I think that's how it's spelled. It's a nice warm-up battle, if and when you get the urge to tackle Cemetary Hill again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 If you were a German recon company commander doing some probing ahead of the division, which of these approaches to the situation at hand would you use: A) There could be anything from a platoon up to a battalion up there on that hill, so I'd better move carefully ahead and pull back if it gets too hot, or Okay, this battle is of the type X, so I have a force Y times larger than my enemy has. Even if this situation looks tough, I'm sure the Russkies will break if I pull the correct strings, because this scenario has been properly play tested for balance. Is your answer "A"? You silly monkey, you got it wrong! Everybody knows that WW2 was a string of puzzle-type situations carefully fixed so that the commanders on both sides would have near equal chances to win. Otherwise everybody would have grown tired of war very soon!There are plenty documented cases when german recon units just attacked against overwhelming enemy units. Did you ever read Panzermeyer's "Grenadiere" ? Regards, Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Sven I think Sergei may have been a bit sarcastic. Then again, do Finns have humour? Playing one of his battles at the moment, the answer must be - no. So maybe you are right. Unless of course you want to suggest that German recon units attacked regardless of the enemy situation, all the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by Andreas: Sven I think Sergei may have been a bit sarcastic. Then again, do Finns have humour? Playing one of his battles at the moment, the answer must be - no. So maybe you are right. Unless of course you want to suggest that German recon units attacked regardless of the enemy situation, all the time. Of course I do not want to suggest that German recon units attacked all the time...but when the commander saw a chance that the enemy might be surprised / confused in a daring atack, it was done. Redgards, Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Just do a search for "Cemetary Hill" in the "Scenario Talk" forum. There are several threads there where the same assessment is expressed. For CMBO, try "blackshear.cmb" as allies for a comparable treat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Originally posted by Andreas: Then again, do Finns have humour? Playing one of his battles at the moment, the answer must be - no.Update your data. After Gestapo sources indicated in 1944 that the attitudes in Finland had become hopeless and pessimistic, Hitler wrote a Führerbefehl in which he ordered some humour to be shipped to Finland (he remembered Goebbels saying something about humour and sadomasochism helping people to cope with trouble). His adjutant first objected, saying that then the German people would be left without, but Hitler stated that such a great people does nothing with such a minimal sense of humour, but for a small people like Finns even that would be something. Shipping it was easier than actually finding it, though, as it all fit into a matchbox. When it finally arrived to the hands of the Finnish government and they examined it, they were so shocked and even insulted by the 'help' they were offered that this led to the Lapland's war between Finland and Germany. The German sense of humour was then interned and exiled to Siberia by Soviets, although some claim that Russian leaders ranging from Nikita Khrustchev to Boris Yeltsin have later used it during their foreign visits to give a more "international" impression. Now this explains why Finland pulled out of the war and why Germans no longer have a sense of humour. German sense of sadomasochism was held firmly, however, and this brings us back to the issue of why Andreas' scenarios are what they are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Aye Sergei, message recieved...Ich geh' dann mal zum Lachen in den Keller... Regards, Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Bevor oder nachdem Du Dir die Hosen mit der Kneifzange angezogen hast? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 29, 2004 Share Posted March 29, 2004 Oi Sergei, when did you start employing a German ghost writer for your posts here? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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