Guest Pillar Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 I was having a chat with a chap last night and we started talking about the M2 .50 cal machine gun. I started by saying that it wasn't really an anti-infantry weapon, and that it is better used to take out enemy half tracks and (if you're lucky) aircraft. In other words, it should be treated as a sort of light AT/AA gun. However, he pointed out (being a former US Marines Company Commander) that even today the M2 is still used for the very purpose of anti infantry. The big advantage of the .50 cal is the AP capability. It will go through trees, light walls, just about anything that isn't thick steel However, "cover" in CM is modeled quite abstractly using the "percent exposure" system, right? So what this means really is that cover works against ALL small arms fire, so an MG42 gets the same "percent exposure" as a .50 cal gets. Thus, the penetration of the .50 cal doesn't really get full treatment. Is this correct? Maybe an item to look at for the next CM build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 I hadn't thought about that. It would also improve the 20mm flak gun. Imagine hiding in a heavy building, with only 9% of your body exposed to the enemy, and .50 cal shells begin tearing through the walls. Not much cover anymore. ------------------ The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, Classic threads, and more! Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimShady Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Originally posted by Pillar: I was having a chat with a chap last night and we started talking about the M2 .50 cal machine gun. I started by saying that it wasn't really an anti-infantry weapon, and that it is better used to take out enemy half tracks and (if you're lucky) aircraft. In other words, it should be treated as a sort of light AT/AA gun. However, he pointed out (being a former US Marines Company Commander) that even today the M2 is still used for the very purpose of anti infantry. The big advantage of the .50 cal is the AP capability. It will go through trees, light walls, just about anything that isn't thick steel However, "cover" in CM is modeled quite abstractly using the "percent exposure" system, right? So what this means really is that cover works against ALL small arms fire, so an MG42 gets the same "percent exposure" as a .50 cal gets. Thus, the penetration of the .50 cal doesn't really get full treatment. Is this correct? Maybe an item to look at for the next CM build. Not to get too OT here, but wasn't there a big huff that use of the .50 cal in an anti-personnel role is technically a violation of the Geneva convention as it was originally and AT weapon? Definetly not agreeing with this, just wondering if it was true or a urban legend in military circles. LimShady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 An easy way to picture the effectiveness of the .50cal. Is to go to your window, look outside, chances are high you see nothing that will protect you from it. I enlisted on my 18th. Birthday and went off to armor school. The second week of training we were marched out to a stationary firing range, placed in bleachers and two M-60A1 MBT ‘s began to fire their M2 50cal’s and 105mm main guns down range. Even though we were seated many meters behind them our first exposure to this fire was so frightening many of us were on the edge of our seats wanting to run away. [This message has been edited by Abbott (edited 03-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksak Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 I recall reading a BTS post from long, long ago that the .50 cal does in fact have greater penetration into woodlines than the other HMGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Before I'll truely understand the morale element of warfare, despite all the reading and study I do, I must experience this for myself. If any of you reading this know of an opportunity (preferably in the Toronto area) to experience a live fire exercise, please let me know. Off topic but I wanted to ask as well how accurate the .50 cal machine gun is. Could it be aimed and fired like a rifle? I just wonder because the power of the round would probably give it a significant range advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Fired from a hard mount (Tank cupola) it is very accurate out to 1,000 meters. Do not think of it in terms of single rifle fire though. It is an area fire (grazing fire) weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksak Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 There is a scope for the .50 cal to use it as a sniper "rifle". The thing is very accurate out to a very long distance and easy to aim and fire. You don't pull the trigger but depress it with your thumbs. It's a great weapon and given enough time could probably knock down a small building. Leaves very large holes in the human body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 I saw (probably on The History Channel) where the .50 is used as a single shot high caliber sniper rifle. The targets are usually lightly armored or soft skinned vehicles. The gunner showed how he could disable most vehicles with one shot through the engine block. He was firing with a scope from a camouflaged position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Originally posted by Pillar: Before I'll truely understand the morale element of warfare, despite all the reading and study I do, I must experience this for myself. If any of you reading this know of an opportunity (preferably in the Toronto area) to experience a live fire exercise, please let me know. Off topic but I wanted to ask as well how accurate the .50 cal machine gun is. Could it be aimed and fired like a rifle? I just wonder because the power of the round would probably give it a significant range advantage. You are aware, of course, that you have 4 infantry regiments in your fair city, yes? Get thee to recruiting and tell them you want to join the 48th Highlanders, Royal Regiment of Canada, Toronto Scottish or Queen's Own Rifles. In all honesty, you won't understand the morale aspect of warfare any better simply by going on a two day exercise. But it wouldn't be valueless by any means, either. The pay is great these days - and you can join up to age 55. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellros Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 At last check there were currently several models of .50 cal sniper rifle in use by the United States armed forces... Barrett M82 (magazine-fed semi-auto), the RAI 500 (a single-shot bolt-action), and the McMillan M87 (single-shot bolt-action). All are designated as "Anti-Material Rifles", meant to be used against light vehicles, equipment, and aircraft on the ground. Of course, they would be used against personnel when necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Originally posted by LimShady: Not to get too OT here, but wasn't there a big huff that use of the .50 cal in an anti-personnel role is technically a violation of the Geneva convention as it was originally and AT weapon? Definetly not agreeing with this, just wondering if it was true or a urban legend in military circles. LimShady That's a military urban legend, I think designed to impress people with how powerful the .50 cal. is. The Geneva convention prohibits using weapons that will cause "unnecessary" pain or suffering, like dum-dum bullets. But this doesn't apply to the .50 cal or, for that matter, 20mm or larger guns used in an anti personnel role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlapanzer Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 There are "hunting rifles" sold in 50 cal variations for extreme long range hunting. Ie. over 500yds. The round is very accurate in the right hands. (not mine ). I had the same live fire experiance as Abbot with about the same results. but actually firing the 50 is just so awsome you have to experiance it for yourself. Just read an account of a paratrooper actually carrying one like a Sub-machine gun and firing it in an assault during Bastone. Now THATS a real man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJMello Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Not to get too OT here, but wasn't there a big huff that use of the .50 cal in an anti-personnel role is technically a violation of the Geneva convention as it was originally and AT weapon? Definetly not agreeing with this, just wondering if it was true or a urban legend in military circles. LimShady We had the same discussion when I was with the 1st ID. I was on an SP Vulcan 20mm. You are allowed to shoot at their equipment though. BTW, a steel pot, LBE and anything else they carry are considered equipment. ------------------ Order, Counterorder, Disorder. - von Moltke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinterbottom Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Just wanted to add my own little tidbit to this discussion. During my service time in the mechanized infantry we sometimes trained in what we call micro terrain coverage while having different MG's, rifles and of course, the trusty old 50 with the then new MP and the old AP ammunition fire over us. And let me tell you, when a 50 cal passes over you it HURTS. It feels like a whiplash hitting you all over the body at once.(Not to mention your ears) And this was with aimed fire above us. I can only imagine how it would feel with a near miss with one of those bad boys. Not to mention a hit. What I am trying to say is that if I was getting incoming 50 cal, I know I would take notice of it to say the least. And it is very easy to have accurate shots from a well mounted position as they were considered to have a stable trajectory for up to about 1000 m. Hmm..feels like I could go on about this for a little while, but it might be prudent to stop while I am somewhat ahead... Mr Winterbottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilltopper Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Can't use a .50 cal or 20mm vulcan as anti-personnel?? Which country came up with that one? The one whose main weapons are rock? Geez, we don't want to kill the enemy too much, we just want to kill them a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybeq Posted March 24, 2001 Share Posted March 24, 2001 Even though numbers don't give a real-life impression of what kind of power a .50 BMG has I nonetheless offer you these ballistics figures: The 7.62 NATO round which is chambered in many sniper rifles, the FN-FAL, the M-60 machine gun and is also considered a first-class civillian deer killer has these ballistics- Muzzle velocity = 2750 fps, bullet weight = 147 grains, muzzle energy = 2400 ft.lbs. The .50BMG's ballistics: Muzzle velocity = 2900 fps, bullet weight = 665 grains, muzzle energy = 12,000 ft. lbs. Wow! Now consider that it is perfectly legal to own a rifle that fires .50 BMG in these United States. Of couse the cheapest one I've found is around $5,000. Guess I'll have to settle for my .300 Win Mag. If you're intersted in .50's in general check out www.fcsa.org ------------------ "To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." -Sun Tzu, The Art Of War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 25, 2001 Share Posted March 25, 2001 Originally posted by Mlapanzer: There are "hunting rifles" sold in 50 cal variations for extreme long range hunting. Ie. over 500yds. The round is very accurate in the right hands. (not mine ). I had the same live fire experiance as Abbot with about the same results. but actually firing the 50 is just so awsome you have to experiance it for yourself. Just read an account of a paratrooper actually carrying one like a Sub-machine gun and firing it in an assault during Bastone. Now THATS a real man. His name wasn't "Swede" was it? And did he say things like "I aint got time to bleed" Just wondering... Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted March 25, 2001 Share Posted March 25, 2001 Man this thread is dug in like an Alabama tick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyD Posted March 25, 2001 Share Posted March 25, 2001 The issue of 50 cal being banned as an anti-personnel weapon is a military urban legend. I am a military attorney (yes, a "JAG" and, believe me, it's just like the TV show... ) 50 cal weapons are perfectly legal to use against personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted March 25, 2001 Share Posted March 25, 2001 I'd say the .50 cal has accuracy as well as power. When I was in the army, the 106 recoilless rifle was a standard infantry company AT gun. The device was double barrelled, the other barrel holding a .50 spotting round which emitted a puff of smoke when it hit a solid target. The trajectory of the .50 fairly matched that of the recoilless round. If you got a puff on the target, you were to fire the 106. ------------------ Airborne Combat Engineer Troop Leader (1966-1968) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted March 25, 2001 Share Posted March 25, 2001 What about the issue of cover in CM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 25, 2001 Share Posted March 25, 2001 Pillar, if you want to talk about cover in CM, start a different thread. This one is about the .50 MG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts