Which scenario is the best accurate, historical one which is Most well ballanced?

[aka_tom_w]

I know we all play meeting engagements because they are fair.

BUT

Can someone suggest to me a good historical real WWII ETO based scenario with plenty of armour that would be considered a fair fight?

I think one of our biggest problems here is that when you are about to attack (if you are a General or Supreme Commander) in WWII you don't want a "fair" fight.

Hell No! you want the odds Stacked in your favour so that you have a decided advantage, why else would you attack?

This clear in some other threads about ahistorical 'buying" practices and "cherry picking" units. That is really just modeling real life. You always want to go into battle with every possible advantge you can gain.

Is it not true that most battles in WWII were fought when the attacker initiated the battle with superior odds?

Just curious..

anyway there are two other threads about gamey picks so I really meant for this thread to focus on suggestions for existing scenarios that are historically accurate AND well balanced.

First Clash a Chambois is the only one I can think of, off hand.

any others?

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 03-22-2001).]

[Kingfish]

Tom,

Give south of sword a try.

[Panzer Leader]

You know it appears to me that that argument doesn't really hold up all that well about odds and such. Most battles in WW2 were huge affairs, with divisions and armies clashing, but they were made up of many smaller battles, down to the level of squad against squad, man against man.

So, really, in this game, it is possible to stack the odds however you want and it could still be considered historical.

Think of an assault, let's take a typical assault for instance. While the Allies might outnumber the Germans 10 to 1, in the small section CMBO models in a particular scenario, the forces could easily be matched, or even the Allies outnumbered.

Anything is possible. This is not a strategic game -- it is tactical.

[Zakalwe]

Tom, if you are not faint of heart, may I suggest 'August Bank Holiday', available at least on Manx's Combat Missions site.

http://www.combat-missions.net/

It is historical, the map is a thing of beauty, and it offers plenty of room for maneuvering. I've played it twice as PBEM, and found it reasonably balanced. However, it's huge, so be prepared...

[Manx_CM]

Anything by Franko - I know he puts in a huge amount of research into his ops/scenarios.

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[Simon Fox]

Do you mean First Clash at Cambres? I don't think either that one or South of Sword are particularly based on historical battles, at least only in a general way. Certainly the British TOE is a bit off the mark. Also I would have thought it would be Canadians in Cambres not Brits. Also I thought the 12th SS first bumped into the Canadians around Authie. The fighting round Cambres involved other German units I think.

As for South of Sword historically I it seems that an infantry heavy British force bumped into strong armoured elements of the 21st Pz and deciding they didn't have the tanks to do much consolidated where they were.

For historical accuracy some of the Bulge scenarios seem pretty good.

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[Franko]

Thanks for the compliments on my scenarios, guys! Sniff.

Franko

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[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

I can offer one of mine that is not historical enough but would meet your other requirements I think. It is called "the Fire Brigade.". Give it a try.

P.S. If you play it solo vs. the AI, I recommend you take the Americans - at least, the first time. But it is best double-blind.

[This message has been edited by jasoncawley@ameritech.net (edited 03-23-2001).]

[bigmac@work]

Bump! Any more input guys? I'm also interested in hearing your opinions on scenarios that Tom has mentioned.

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[Michael Dorosh]

Bloody Buron II on my site has a historical map and lots of armour. It has been playtested twice as Canadian and doesn't seem well balanced from that perspective - it might be interesting to play as the Germans, though. I would love to get feedback when played as German - I don't have the time (or strength) to try it myself.

Detailed playtest notes are available on my site as well.

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[Patton_71]

Hey, assuming you want to find other scenarios out there from the gaming community, i suggest many ASL (advance squad leader) scenarios. Especially any from the Kampfgruppe Pieper series ... Just a suggestion. Pat

[bigmac@work]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, all good. However, doesn't ONE of the scenarios that you've played stand out in your mind? I already know that "Anything by Wild Bill or Franco" would fill my bill. Unfortunately I haven't the time to play them all to find out for myself, and then it'd be too late to play it double blind.... I've been playing QB's to death and want to get back to investigating all the wonderful scenarios available for the game in a double blind with my opponent. I was hoping for you to relay a single scenario name which you have played that strikes you as both well balanced and at least pseudo-realistic. Thanks again for all your suggestions guys!

Bigmac out!

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[Moon]

Simon, do not confuse Cambes with Cambres. Both are towns in Normandy and both saw a lot of action, but they are different towns. First Clash at Cambes is based on the official history of the 12. SS Hilterjugend Division which shows unit positions and movements as well as 1:25000 topo maps of the area.

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[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by bigmac@work:

However, doesn't ONE of the scenarios that you've played stand out in your mind? .... I've been playing QB's to death and want to get back to investigating all the wonderful scenarios available for the game in a double blind with my opponent. I was hoping for you to relay a single scenario name which you have played that strikes you as both well balanced and at least pseudo-realistic.

Along with AUGUST BANK HOLIDAY (already recommmended) I'd suggest two by Wild Bill, the scenario BRIDGEHEAD AT BENICOURT (just mentioned in the scenario forum) and the operation TEAM DeSOBRY. I've only played them against the AI, but they look very much to me like they'd give you balanced double-blind play, with lots of surprises on both sides. Both are pretty intense, even hair-raising at times.

Also try THE WRONG HILL--this may be by Wild Bill also--I can't remember. Another hair-raising scenario fun to play on either side (and in this case it really is double BLIND--you'll see what I mean when you play it.)

[bigmac@work]

Excellent! Thanks CombinedArms. That's exactly the kind of input I'm looking for. Anyone else have their favorites out there?

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[GriffinCheng+]

IMO, anything from WBW are great! I tried "BRIDGEHEAD AT BENICOURT" against Henri -- even though I could only make a successful pull out, it could be fun.

Also, all PBEM/TCP-IP only from Rune are evil.

Griffin.

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[bigmac@work]

Thanks Griffin. I downloaded Rune's pack (6?) last night. Looking forward to wading through some of those. Which scenario off of the Rune Pack was your favorite?

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[GriffinCheng+]

Hey,

Frankly I have not tried any "Rune 6". I have tried "August Bank Holiday 2.0" and it is up to the claim that it is one of the best tank-intensive game out there. And you can see clearly why Tiger is no ubertank.

I sent the Allied setup of "Rolling down the River" to another individual but this individual never response what-so-ever.

I am going to play "Woody's Crossroad" soon. I will let you know what I feel about it.

Griffin.

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"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

Get the CMSOD at Combat Missing Command Post (CMCP) at http://www.angelfire.com/games3/CMCP/

[Guest wwb_99]

Out of Rune Pak 6, one scenario stands out: Reut Canal. Wild map, interesting forces.

Also remeber to check out the other Rune Paks for some other classics such as 'A River Runs thru it' and more.

WWB

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[bigmac@work]

Thanks WWB, I'm shopping for a scenario to play Johnno in double blind. I just want it to be fun, interesting, surprising and at least pseudo-historic. Thanks!

Bigmac out!

PS Sorry Tom, in reviewing this topic, it appears I seem to have stolen it from you. My apologies, just got a little carried away.

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[Simon Fox]

Simon, do not confuse Cambes with Cambres. Both are towns in Normandy and both saw a lot of action, but they are different towns. First Clash at Cambes is based on the official history of the 12. SS Hilterjugend Division which shows unit positions and movements as well as 1:25000 topo maps of the area.

I am not confusing the two, I just misspelled the former, hehe. I was mistaken as I thought the action was against 21st panzer and other Wehrmacht elements rather than 12thSS but upon further reading it seem Cambes was the extreme right flank of the 12thSS and the point at which it did clash with British troops consolidating the lodgement area rather than the Canadians who fought the bulk of the initial actions involving the 12thSS. Even so the scenario is clearly not historical as your 12thSS OOB may be accurate but your British OOB is completely off. I played the scenario against Bastables and we abandoned it halfway through as I got cranky with absence of units clearly in the British TOE and the complete uselessness of Vickers MG without their ORGANIC carriers. (Rune-you can take note of that too as I continue my crusade to educate you-hehe)

The scenario is clearly not historical.

Here chew on this.... (Jason eat yer heart out) hehe

?was believed that Cambes was lightly held, but as the two woods surrounding it were themselves surrounded by walls some ten feet high, it was not possible to observe the enemies actual dispositions.?

On the afternoon of 7th June 1944, D company The 2nd Bn. The Royal Ulster Rifles with support of one Sqn East Riding Yeomanry attacked Cambes and the woods, although gaining entry into the woods strong enfilading MG and mortar fire made the position untenable and they withdrew to attack 2 days later with better support.

The picture was as follows: Cambes and Galmanche (another small village some 800 yards south of Cambes), thought to be lightly held by the enemy, were defended strongly as outposts. Buron and St Contest, two villages a further 1000 yards or so south and south west of Galmanche were strongly held. On the east side, La Bijude, some 800 yards south east of Cambes, and Epron, some 500 yards south of La Bijude were held by the enemy with unknown strength.

For the attack on Cambes Wood 9th June, 1944

The 2nd Bn. The Royal Ulster Rifles had additional troops as follows:

Under Command:

one section Field Ambulance.

In support,

one 6? Cruiser, Royal Navy,

the whole of the Divisional Artillery,

two troops Anti-Tank (RA) ? one ordinary and one self propelled.

One company 4.2? mortars,

one company Medium Machine Guns;

one regiment of Sherman tanks (East Riding Yeomanry)

Royal Engineers in the shape of assault demolition and mine clearance teams, with five Armoured Vehicles Royal Engineers in support.

?It will be recalled that the ground from Anisy to Cambes is open, its distance being approximately 1500 yards, and its width approximately 800 yards. A dusty track with no bordering or fence of any description runs straight from Anisy to Cambes.

The intention of the Commanding Officer was simple and direct; ?2nd Bn. The Royal Ulster Rifles will capture and consolidate Cambes?. The plan was as follows: The advance from Anisy to Cambes over the open ground was to be carried out with B Company on the right, A Company on the left with their left on the track, D Company supporting B Company, and C Company supporting A Company, the advance to be carried out under cover of an artillery barrage. The advance was to be in open order, with A and B Companies clearing the front edge of the village and guarding the flanks, and with C and D Companies passing through and capturing the far edges of the village, the whole operation requiring both wood and street fighting.

Prior to Zero Hour, the Naval Cruiser gave a five minute concentration onto the village, followed by the Fd Arty giving a series of concentration, behind which the Battalion were to advance. The anti-tank gunners were to protect the flanks, and the East Riding Yeomanry tanks were also to assist. The assault companies, A and B, were each given a demolition and mine clearance team for use until their final objectives, when they were to pass these on to the supporting companies, C and D. The Armoured Vehicles Royal Engineers were to move forward with the Battalion ready to deal with any strongpoints.

The 4.2? mortars were given two tasks of crumping onto A Companys first objective, and then to transfer to C Companys final objective. The Medium Machine Gun Company were (1) To cover the left flank, and (2) To consolidate on the final objectives in order to deal with counter attacks.

The Battalions own 3? Mortar Platoon were to be prepared to fire on call from the Assault Companies, and then from the two Supporting Companies.

The Carrier Platoon under command of 5 Company Commander, Major C. R. P. Sweeny, MC, were to remain at Anisy and be prepared to ferry up ammunition or any other requirements to the objectives.

The anti-tank platoon were given protective tasks once the objective had been gained. and the Pioneer Platoon, whose Commander, Lt D. Greer, had left the Battalion on the 7th June to collect some stores from a dump and had not since returned, were to be ready should the Royal Engineers not be in a position to fulfil their commitments.

At 1515 hours 9th June, A and B Companies crossed the start line followed by the Battalion O Group behind A Company. The men were well spaced out and advanced in good order, direction being steadied by the Commanding Officer from the left. As the Companies reached the ridge some 1100 yards from the objective, whence they could be permanently observed by the enemy they came under a heavy barrage of mortar and shell fire accompanied by machine gun fire. The Commanding Officer of the East Riding Yeomanry, who had fought with the Guards, observing the advance from the start line, said to himself ?This is where they get to ground, and the attack is held up?. To his astonishment however, the Battalion continued to advance in open order keeping perfect distance. Certainly there is no doubt that the Companies advanced through what appeared to be an impassable barrage with the same unconcern as that shown on a company field firing exercise. Men were dropping all round, but still the advance continued. A Company under Major W. D. Tighe-Wood were particularly unfortunate, losing all three of their Platoon Commanders, Lt R. S. Hall being killed, and the other two, Lt D. Walsh and Lt J. St. J. Cooper being wounded in such a way that they could not carry on. Further, one Platoon Serjeant was also knocked out. But Major Tighe-Wood, despite these difficulties, succeeded in establishing his Company upon the objective and inspired all ranks by his example of cool and determined leadership. Cpl OReilly finding himself the senior person left in his platoon, took command and did very good work during the difficult period of consolidation which followed.

In the same Company, Rfn Miller finding his section leader-less, took over command and led his section with great initiative. L/Sjt McCann, A Company, was badly wounded in the face, but refused to drop out of the fight until his Platoons objective had been obtained. B Company on the right, under the command of Major J. W. Hyde, came under heavy mortar and machine gun fire from the flank about 400 yards from the near edge of their first objective. With great presence of mind Sjt Kavanagh of 11 Platoon engaged the machine guns with his Bren groups and also directed the attention of a tank on to the trouble. Subsequent patrolling located several enemy dead in the target area. The first objective was quickly taken, 10 Platoon passing with great speed through the village to the church. their final objective. One German, an SS sniper was wounded and taken prisoner.

A and B Companies reached their first objective by 1630 hours. In passing through A Company, C Company, who by this time had the Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers tanks under command, lost these to German 88 mm guns firing from La Bijude. These tanks manned by Royal Engineers had done great work, their crews having shown a strong desire to get to grips with the enemy, carrying out tasks which strictly they were not intended to do. the history of the 79th Armd Div has something uncomplementary to say about this misuse of ARVEs around Cambes However. C Company Commander, Major J. C. S. G. de Longueuil, could not communicate with them during the battle, and they fought until their tanks were knocked out underneath them. When C Company with great vigour and dash, had fought their way through the wood to their final objective, they were unfortunate in losing one of their Platoon Commanders, Lt R. C. Diserens, who regardless of his own safety, was running about in the open under fire, putting his platoon into position. This very enthusiastic young officer was severely wounded and died later from the effects, a great loss to his Company and to the Battalion.

D Company, which it will be remembered was sadly depleted, went through B Company, and almost immediately, two of its remaining three officers were wounded, Captain J. Montgomery the acting Company Commander, though wounded twice in the leg, carried on throughout the battle, and Lt Lennox, after leading his Platoon with great determination was severely wounded and could not carry on. Had D Company not secured its objective, it is possible that the enemy could have used this portion of the village and wood to make a very vigorous counter attack. In this battle D Company lost a further two killed, fifteen wounded, and one missing.

Immediately the leading companies had reached their first objectives, the Anti-Tank Platoon under command of Captain C. R. Gray was ordered to move forward to assist in consolidation. All gun detachments moved forward in the face of an accurate 88 mm and mortar fire, and succeeded in being manhandled into position with the exception of one detachment. This was commanded by Cpl Boyd and received a direct hit from an 88 mm shell which besides knocking out the carrier, wounded Cpl Boyd and Rfn Heald and killed Rfn Bingham. Rfn Walton the remaining member of the crew escaped without injury. The gun itself was later recovered and manhandled into position. Whilst consolidating against a probable counter attack, the enemy subjected the position to a vicious attack of mortar and shell fire which lasted for five hours, so that the digging in was carried out under the greatest difficulties. During the consolidation, Captain M. D. G. C. Ryan, Headquarter Company Commander, was severely burnt in the hands by the explosion of a Phosphorous Smoke Bomb, and evacuated, and Major Brooks, MC, the very popular commander of the RA Battery which had supported the Battalion since 1939, was killed.

At the end of the day, the Battalions total casualties were three Officers and forty one Other Ranks killed, seven Officers and one hundred and thirty one Other Ranks wounded and evacuated, three Officers and three Other Ranks wounded but not evacuated, one Officer and ten Other Ranks missing, making a total away from the Battalion of eleven Officers and one hundred and eighty two Other Ranks. Many of the wounded had been amazingly cheerful, joking in the face of the most frightful wounds. The Medical Officer, Captain C. R. Wright, RAMC, and his staff of medical orderlies and stretcher bearers had been a pillar of strength, dealing with patients with the same calmness and a good deal more humour than was normally shown on the non operational sick parade. Mention has already been made of Captain Aldworth and Lt Diserens. Lt Hall had not been with the Battalion for as long as them, having joined in January from the Coast Artillery, but he was already marked out for promotion by his ability and excellence as an officer, while to his many friends, his death meant the loss of one for whom loyalty and reliability were always paramount virtues and for whom gaiety and good humour were as essential as the breath of life.

Morale in the Battalion never faltered from the beginning. The Battalion took its victory and its wounds as if they were normal everyday occurrences. After consolidation, the Officers and Men soon learnt the advisability of digging deep, and the Germans regular strafing was soon the cause of much laughter and singing of such songs as ?Run Rabbit Run?. Cambes was not liked, but it was looked upon as a stepping stone to bigger things, and in order that the Germans could know this too, strong fighting patrols soon took up the offensive. When the 2nd Battalion was ordered to move forward again, it was not weaker owing to Cambes but stronger, and the Germans soon learnt to recognise the strong fighting spirit of the Royal Ulster Rifles.

It was learnt later that as a result of this operation, Major W. D. Tighe-Wood, Captain J. Montgomery and Lt S. M. Lennox had been awarded the Military Cross, Cpl OReilly the Distinguished Conduct Medal, L/Sjt McCann, Rfn Long (who as a Signaller with C Company had attended a wounded man under severe shell fire with complete disregard for his own safety) and Rfn McGlennon (who as D Companys runner had maintained personal communication throughout the worst phase of the battle) the Military Medal.

By July 3rd the geography of Cambes and its surroundings were firmly imprinted on our minds. The village itself must have held a population of some 300 before the war, but now, of course, there was none, the last civilians ? four old ladies ? being evacuated by ourselves on June 12th. The main road ran from North to South through the village from Villon Les Buissons on its way to Malon, and ultimately Caen, having Galmanche and St Contest on its right, and La Bijude and Epron on its left. North East and North of the village lay the wood, and through it into the village ran a track from Anisy, which was our main channel of supply and communication. This track was generously bordered with trenches and ditches, and many a visitor, trapped in a spell of Boche harassing fire, abandoned his vehicle for one of these. Within the framework of these roads stood the Chateau, a large white impressive structure set in what a few years before must have been beautiful surroundings. The back windows looked down an avenue which connected La Bijude with Cambes, and the front looked across the Northern stretches of the wood which contained our own Mortar platoon and half the other Battalion that was holding this area with ourselves. Some 200 yards to the West of the Chateau stood the Church, the meeting point of all roads and tracks leading into and out of the village. It was a fine old Norman church and once it had dominated the village architecturally just as its preachers and doctrines influenced the lives of all that dwelt there. Now, penetrated again and again by shells and shrapnel, its grandeur was a mere shadow of its former self. The railway followed along the Southern edge of the wood, crossed the Avenue at a level crossing and then swung South to follow a tortuous path towards Caen. Just East of the level crossing was Cambes station or halt ? a building which we would have described as a signal box.

June 9th, 1944, 2nd Battalion, Middlesex regiment, MG Regiment (Vickers and 4.2? mortars)

During the afternoon the Royal Ulster Rifles, of 9th Infantry Brigade, made an attack on Cambes Wood, supported by "B" Company and Nos. 10 and 11 Mortar Platoons. The opening barrage included both mortar and machine-gun fire, the mortars firing on the wood from Cazelle and Nos. 4 and 6 Machine-Gun Platoons of "B" Company raking the wood from the left flank with fire at a range of no more than 400 yards. As soon as they opened up they were heavily engaged by enemy artillery, losing three men wounded.

The R.U.R. advanced frontally on the wood from Anisy, down a long, open, forward slope and under very heavy fire from enemy tanks at La Bijude. As the infantry reached the edge of the wood, the remaining platoon (No. 5) of "B" Com-pany raced down the road from Anisy on a consolidation task, but at the last minute their carriers were held up by the infantry. For a few moments they were brought to a standstill, giving the enemy tank gunners a stationary target. The leading carrier was hit, fortunately without causing any casualties to the crew, but the others managed to get into the corner of the wood at Cambes, where the guns were quickly mounted to form a defensive screen.

The Commanding Officer, coming up on the pillion of a motor-cycle to the wood for a conference with the brigadier, had his cycle hit by anti-tank fire and had to crawl and run the last hundred yards, he and his driver, Sergeant Davis, both running the gauntlet of a very persistent sniper on the exposed flank.

Cambes Wood was not a healthy place for the issue of further orders, for the enemy, having themselves withdrawn, directed a heavy mortar fire on the whole area. One bomb landed on Major Passy?s carrier, killing him, Corporal Green, his driver operator, Lance-Corporal Rees, and Private Baker. C.S.M. Bell, who had accompanied Major Passy, was mortally wounded a few minutes later by another. Nor was that the full tale of the losses at Cambes, for Captain McDowell, second-in-command of "B" Company. came up to the wood as soon as he heard that Major Pause had been killed and was himself killed imme-diately on arrival.

The enemy fire directed on to the wood at Cambers became fiercer as the evening wore on. Movement became almost impossible and the Commanding Officer was pinned down near No. 5 Platoon. Lance-Sergeant Davis, his dispatch rider, distinguished himself during the evening by the complete dis-regard of danger with which he ran messages up and down the wood and tended the wounded under heavy fire. The bar to the M.M., which he won that day, was richly deserved. Captain H. B. Neve, the mortar O.P. officer, also won the M.C. for his gallantry on this occasion. While directing the fire of two mortar platoons, he had to sit out in the open as his wireless remote control gear had been hit by shrapnel, and the coolness and efficiency with which he directed the fire with shells and bombs exploding all round him was beyond praises

At last light, the K.O.S.B. reached Cambes to reinforce the Royal Ulster Rifles. With their arrival the German fire gradually died down and the area was finally consolidated and firmly held.

[bigmac@work]

Whew!! Thanks Simon, that was an entertaining treatise on Cambes (a good read too). OK, I believe you. You certainly have that particular battle pegged.

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