"war in 3D" What i have to buy another video card?

[Ralph Beaman]

The article "war in 3D" in the new July issue of Computer Games magazine, on CM2, was informative and answered all my questions and expectations for the next chapter in one of the greatest WWII war games of all time. I feel tthat the article written by Robert Mayer was well written, fair and just on the evalution on CM2. My heart pounded as i started to read the article in anticipation on what lay ahead for CM2 and other CM games in the works for the future. The only thing i found disturbing was the fact i bought a 16 meg video card that works well for CM1 and now i have to buy a 32 meg to support CM2. That's ok, beacuse i have already planed to save a little each month for the upgrade for my computer, guess that is the price i pay for perfection in the gaming world. The screen shots look promising in the article as well. Can't wait to start pouring hot lead down range at the Russians in the next most promissing and long a waited game of 2002.

[gunnergoz]

I'm surprised, not having yet seen the article, that the minimum requirements have grown to a 32mb video card. I specifically recall Steve saying that the game would be able to support cards with less, certainly 16mb. Is this actually what the article says?

[The Commissar]

Maybe you misunderstood (or the author of the article did so), but I distinctly remember that 16 meg would be the minium, as opposed to the current minimum of 8 megs.

32, however, is the recommended specs. Unless this changed (and I doubt it did, becuase if 32 was minimum, 64 would be recommended, and BTS isn't making this game for FPS players who dish out the doe for this hardware), the article must contain a mistake.

[Shatter]

I too just read the article, and I have a question as well.

Here is the direct quote.

"The games minimum resolution will be 800X600, and Big Time is dropping support for Voodoo 1 cards, whose drivers are "buggier than an anthill", says Steve Grammont."

Now does this mean all Voodoo video cards in general, or just the Voodoo 1 video cards.

I have a Voodoo 5500 AGP, and certainly hope this does not included myself, because I have only had the card for about 6 months. I am pretty sure this only includes the Voodoo 1 video cards, but I just want to make sure.

So if anyone knows, can you give me some feed back?

[Soddball]

Incidentally, if you pick the Sparkle GEForce 32MB cards, they retail in the UK for around £45 - less than half of the price you'd pay for an Nvidia or Creative. Sure, they're not the branded model, but at that price I can't complain.

I tend to use Micro Direct

for my parts.

/\

This was not a shameless plug. I just happen to use them, OK

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: Soddball ]

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shatter:

Now does this mean all Voodoo video cards in general, or just the Voodoo 1 video cards.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haven't read the article, but I assume it only means the 4MB Voodoo 1, which doesn't support anything above 640x480. But the mention of a 800x600 minimum does bring up another interesting question. If the game min is indeed 800x600 does that mean that 640x480 software mode is now unsupported (IOW, you HAVE to have a 3D accelerator in order to run CM2)?!? I certainly hope not. I'd imagine there are a good number of devoted CM fans who don't have a 3D accelerator who are looking forward to CM2.

- Chris

[jshandorf]

Kripes sake... By the time CM2 comes out you should be able to pick up a GeForce2 MX 32 Meg DDR card for UNDER 100 bucks so quit yer cryin.

If you can spend 50 bucks for CM2 then you can spend atmost 100 bucks for a new video card.

Jeff

[Ignus]

You took the words right out of my mouth.. People talking about being die-hard fans and how could the company let us down with these requirments etc. etc.

I mean no offense to any of you, but that is the main reason that PC game developers don't FULLY utilize what the PC can do. Some of you are afraid to spend $100.00 on a 3D card. I bought a Geforce 2 MX 32 meg video card for that price and it was a breeze to hook up. If more people did this, we'd see much better games hit the market. Not simply games that cater to the 133 Mhz users with an 8 meg video card..

Ignus

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

Kripes sake... By the time CM2 comes out you should be able to pick up a GeForce2 MX 32 Meg DDR card for UNDER 100 bucks so quit yer cryin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the $100 video card upgrade would help laptop users how, exactly?

Besides, software mode is always a fail-safe mode for folks who have problems with their machine not initializing the 3D graphics. Without software mode, you get nothing (or a crash back to the desktop or even a full system crash). Fun fun fun!

BTW, does anyone have the exact quote from the article? Is 800x600 an absolute minimum or just a recommended minimum? Seems odd that BTS would remove a basic video mode from the game; rendering some cards completely unusable.

- Chris

[joeski]

The article says.

"The games minimum resolution will be 800X600, and Big Time is dropping support for Voodoo 1 cards, whose drivers are "buggier than an anthill", says Steve Grammont."

Seems to me that will be the minmum resolution and no voodoo 1 cards. There should still be software support.

[Robert Mayer]

First off, the quote with the Voodoo references is from CGW, not my CGM article, just to clear things up.

In the CGM article, I write:

"The game will drop support for 4MB video cardds, making 8MB cards the minimum requirement. 32MB cards are suggested, though the game will function well with 16MB boards."

I.e., the only things that won't run this game in 3D mode (I presume; I didn't ask about software mode, for some reason ) are old cards like the Voodoo1 and the early ATI Rage boards. Anyone with a remotely modern 3D card should be ok, though if you want to use high-res textures and lots of mods, the more VRAM you have the better, obviously. :confused:

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: Robert Mayer ]

[Maximus]

Well as Ignus so eloquently put, for those people who are always trying to get by with the bare minimum is were the problem lies.

I never go by minimum requirements. Minimum requiremnts are just that. Minimum. That means the program will run on it, but at bare minimum capacity or "eye candy" if you will. Meaning graphics will have to be turned down to a minimum. Why would anybody want to play a game with bare minimum effects?

I always look at what is recommended. If my system don't meet those requirements, then I don't bother with the game. When the majority of the games' recommended requirment get above my system, then its time for an upgrade. Simple as that. I'm not going to try to play CM1 on a P2-233 with an 8MB video card, 'cause I just ain't going to do it. I had a Celeron 433 with a 32MB TNT2 card and it was still slow especially will large maps and hi-res mods.

My friend has a K6-2 400 with a 16 MB card. I couldn't believe how slow it ran and he was mostly running stock graphics.

I now have a 1.2GHz Athlon with a 64MB Geforce 2 GTS and it still lags a little bit on large maps. Of course I have about every Hi-Res Mod installed including grass, so trying to get by on CM2 with just a 16MB card is like...forget it. Besides, IIRC, the stock textures this time are going to be more in the Hi-Res area.

[Von Fauster]

Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I didn't think it was all that confusing. At any rate, I really enjoyed your article. Keep up the good work and thanks for shining the spotlight where it belongs (on BTS). I look forward to more of your work. (Maybe a CM2 update prior to release?)

Thanks again. Sincerely,

Von Fauster

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robert Mayer:

First off, the quote with the Voodoo references is from CGW, not my CGM article, just to clear things up.

In the CGM article, I write:

"The game will drop support for 4MB video cardds, making 8MB cards the minimum requirement. 32MB cards are suggested, though the game will function well with 16MB boards."

I.e., the only things that won't run this game in 3D mode (I presume; I didn't ask about software mode, for some reason ) are old cards like the Voodoo1 and the early ATI Rage boards. Anyone with a remotely modern 3D card should be ok, though if you want to use high-res textures and lots of mods, the more VRAM you have the better, obviously. :confused:

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: Robert Mayer ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Robert Mayer]

Hehe, thanks. The "confusing" icon was a mistake, one which I haven't bothered to edit out.... :eek:

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ignus:

.

I mean no offense to any of you, but that is the main reason that PC game developers don't FULLY utilize what the PC can do. Some of you are afraid to spend $100.00 on a 3D card. I bought a Geforce 2 MX 32 meg video card for that price and it was a breeze to hook up.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they are not a breeze to hook up. I think that in many cases they are far from a breeze.

I think instead of breeze, i would sometimes use the words "miserable pain in the ass."

With more and more computers coming with videocards pre installed, this is less of an issue than it was a year ago, but its not a problem that has gone away.

For now, I think its tough to convince people that opening up the computer, installing the card and getting the drivers to work is easy.

You can;t convince me.

[gunnergoz]

This argument about upgrading hardware really has no definitive answer...many people will upgrade their PC's and many others wouldn't crack the case to save their lives.

Even for inveterate case-crackers like myself, a substantive change like a video card can be a colossal pain in the buttocks. I'll do it, but don't relish losing a weekend of sweatin' and swearin' in the process.

At the same time, darn few people will buy a new PC just to play a particular game. Some Mac nuts (again yours truly ) went out and purchased a PC clone just to play Harpoon when it first came out.

But BTS can't count on these types of fanatics on a regular basis. They have to remain mainstream or risk losing a BIG chunk of sales.

Steve et al are a canny crew. I trust that they'll come up with a hardware threshhold that MOST players can meet.

One unavoidable and unhappy fact of life in the PC world is that precious little software is TOTALLY, unequivocably compatible with every conceivable hardware combination.

Maybe when we're all running variations of UNIX, all this compatibility/upgrade furor will go away...but I doubt it.

[Foobar]

I built my current system for the purpose of playing CM. My CMBO cd rarely leaves the cd player. Long Live BTS!!

[Ignus]

I'm sorry I upset some of you. I am so used to replacing computer components within minutes without a hitch. Afterall, that's what I do for a living. The fact remains, however, that the upgrade process is inevitable. I recently upgraded to an AMD T-Bird 900 with a Geforce 2 and 128 megs of RAM. I feel as if there has been a big weight lifted from my shoulders. I no longer have to worry about requirements and recommendations as I now have a computer that will run EVERYTHING. Intel has a 1.7 GHZ chip out there now. That doesnn't mean everyone should run out and buy one, but I've found that a good indication of when to upgrade is when about 50% of games/programs recommendations fall beyond what I have. If I start to fall behind in required specs, then I'm in trouble. The longer I wait, the more money I end up spending.

My overall point to all this is that owning a PC these days requires you to upgrade about once a year (to be conservative) in one way or another. Technology is moving so fast that we don't really have a choice. The game developers are STILL not creating the games they could with the power we possess. And if you have a laptop, then you're pretty much screwed. Unless your laptop is business related, you shouldn't have bought one. That is all I deal with everyday and they're overblown, overpriced, non-upgradeable, overheating pieces of crap. If you have a laptop issued from work, then you don't have a right to bitch cuz unless your a game tester, it's probably not supported anyway. Cheerio..

Ignus

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ignus:

My overall point to all this is that owning a PC these days requires you to upgrade about once a year (to be conservative) in one way or another. Technology is moving so fast that we don't really have a choice.

Ignus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that this is generally not true for most people, including gamers. If you look at the system requirements for most new games (I just checked on Amazon), you will find that they are relatively modest -- Black & White, for example, requires a 350Mhz processor, 64M of ram and an 8M video card. More would be better, of course, but these reqs were common on 3 or 4 year old computers. I didn't see any games that required more than a 400 Mhz processor, 64M of ram, or an 8MB vid card.

So I think that CM is, if anything, pushing the envelope on system requirements; there's no real need to upgrade every year unless your computer was barely adequate to begin with.

Having said that, though, I'm happy that the release of CM2 appears correspond with my planned computer replacement anyway.

:cool:

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe:

And the $100 video card upgrade would help laptop users how, exactly?

Besides, software mode is always a fail-safe mode for folks who have problems with their machine not initializing the 3D graphics. Without software mode, you get nothing (or a crash back to the desktop or even a full system crash). Fun fun fun!

BTW, does anyone have the exact quote from the article? Is 800x600 an absolute minimum or just a recommended minimum? Seems odd that BTS would remove a basic video mode from the game; rendering some cards completely unusable.

- Chris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off Laptops are not for games... period. That is not thier market and the hardware specs are not designed for it.

So go ahead and play on a laptop but any complaints you have will not fall on sympathetic ears.

Jeff

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I think that this is generally not true for most people, including gamers. If you look at the system requirements for most new games (I just checked on Amazon), you will find that they are relatively modest -- Black & White, for example, requires a 350Mhz processor, 64M of ram and an 8M video card. More would be better, of course, but these reqs were common on 3 or 4 year old computers. I didn't see any games that required more than a 400 Mhz processor, 64M of ram, or an 8MB vid card.

So I think that CM is, if anything, pushing the envelope on system requirements; there's no real need to upgrade every year unless your computer was barely adequate to begin with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you see that's just it. Requirements is what it takes for the computer just to run the program without the computer saying "Huh, wha?"

Recommended Requirements are what it takes for the computer to run it in somewhat good fashion.

For instance, like I said above was a Celeron 433. Most games were requiring a 400 MHz processor with recommended speeds being around 600-650 MHz. So that's when I figured that it was time. No crying about it, I just knew that it was time as this was my fourth major computer upgrade since my first 386-33 ten years ago.

So basically the advice that Ingus and I are trying to get across here is that if you're constantly just trying to get by with the minimal spec, then you will be constantly having to upgrade sooner than you would if you'd buy a system that is well above and beyond the average recommended specs to begin with. Besides, at the price of PCs this day and age, there's no reason why a person couldn't afford a Intel/AMD 800 MHz system with at least a 32MB Geforce 2 card for just around $600-700.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

I think they are not a breeze to hook up. I think that in many cases they are far from a breeze.

I think instead of breeze, i would sometimes use the words "miserable pain in the ass."

With more and more computers coming with videocards pre installed, this is less of an issue than it was a year ago, but its not a problem that has gone away.

For now, I think its tough to convince people that opening up the computer, installing the card and getting the drivers to work is easy.

You can;t convince me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can relate to this as a few days ago I bought a GeForce2 64mb card by Visiontek. Went home all happy to install it and then after some time, found it kept freezing my computer. Grrrr.

Tried all the fixes they offered and no luck.

So, back to the store I go and this time I get the GeForce2 32mb card from Hercules. Go home, sure it's gonna work this time and guess what...same damn thing. My computer freezes while surfing the net.

What the hell is going on here?!!!!!

I had to put back my Voodoo just to log on to this forum and type this damn message. I ran msinfo32.exe to find any corrupted files and it found one called setupx.dll. So, I have just fixed that and now we'll see what happens. I doubt though that if I put back my Hercules card that it will freaking matter. I'm ready to go out tomorrow and buy a whole new system. I've been wanting to get a new processor, motherboard, hard drive, and tower anyway and this looks like a good time to do it so I don't have to deal with this crap.

[Maximus]

Well, funny you should mention computer freezes with the Geforce while on the net. Mine does that too, but it only does it every now and then. I have just chalked my problem up to the replacement modem that they installed in my system because my old one apparently didn't work with this set-up.

[Guest PondScum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

First off Laptops are not for games... period. That is not thier market and the hardware specs are not designed for it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true - I believe there's a mobile GeForce chipset out there now with 32MB, and there's no way you need that for PowerPoint presentations Several high-end laptops have had 16MB chipsets for a while, and my main CMBO machine is a Dell C600 with an 8MB ATI chipset. So it might not be their primary usage, but laptop manufacturers have clearly seen that games are an important secondary market. Makes sense - if you're trying to market a laptop as a desktop replacement, you can't cut yourself out of a big application area.

[Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ralph Beaman:

The article "war in 3D" in the new July issue of Computer Games magazine, on CM2, was informative and answered all my questions and expectations for the next chapter in one of the greatest WWII war games of all time. I feel tthat the article written by Robert Mayer was well written, fair and just on the evalution on CM2. My heart pounded as i started to read the article in anticipation on what lay ahead for CM2 and other CM games in the works for the future. The only thing i found disturbing was the fact i bought a 16 meg video card that works well for CM1 and now i have to buy a 32 meg to support CM2. That's ok, beacuse i have already planed to save a little each month for the upgrade for my computer, guess that is the price i pay for perfection in the gaming world. The screen shots look promising in the article as well. Can't wait to start pouring hot lead down range at the Russians in the next most promissing and long a waited game of 2002.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you like playing the latest and greatest computer games, then you better get used to upgrading your video card. You are on the low end with your current card. Standard now is 32meg. The "standard" just keeps going up and up. People want more realistic, flashier games. That's the price we pay. CM2 requirements are still tame. I have a Geforce 2 and CM2 looks great especially with all the hi-res mods out there. I tried CM on an 8 meg card. It was truly sad to see.

Anyway, you may want to consider getting a 64 meg card to stay ahead of the requirements battle but 32 should do you fine for a while longer. Of course the quality of a video card is much more than just how much memory it has. It also includes specific features and effects a card supports. You can pick up a 32 meg Geforce 2 card for dirt cheap these days. Actually you can pick up any decent 32 meg video card for dirt cheap these days.

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: Commissar ]