jshandorf Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 It is my belief that men commit atrocities not intangible concepts of names. The Waffen-SS didn't kill people, it was the men that made up the Waffen-SS. You could say that I am splitting hairs but the distinction is important. Just as there have always been men in battle who commit atrocities, murder, raped, call it what you like, the Waffen-SS just had a disproportionate amount of men who did these things. The men of the Waffen-SS are no more evil then any man who preys on the innocent and helpless. For example, in the Korean war it has been documented that US troops machine gunned unarmed women and children who were trying to flee south from the invading N. Korean army. Since the American commanders at the time were worried about saboteurs and spies infiltrating the rear areas these US troops were instructed to allow NO Korean people past them. Apparently some Officer took this to mean they should shoot any group trying to make it past them. Men do evil, not organizations. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Maximus - You call for open-mindedness, but then attack people who bring up evidence which contradicts yours as being 'biased.' Try being a bit open-minded yourself. You can't bring up a topic and then get into a snit because not everyone agrees with you. From your behavior it seems that you don't want a discussion, you want everyone to tell you how right you are. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Jeff, If I had the time and desire I could dig up at least a dozen threads on the BBS about the SS, war crimes, etc... and each one will have a padlock on the end. This one will be no different. ------------------ Terminate...with extreme prejudice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted March 5, 2001 Author Share Posted March 5, 2001 OK, granted the horrible atrocities committed in the concentration camps, what makes other such concentration camps around the world any less harsh? What about the American camps for Japanese-Americans caught in the middle of a tense situation? These camps were created for the very same reason that the Jewish concentration camps were in Europe. And that was racism. Only the US camps didn't have furnaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by jshandorf: It is my belief that men commit atrocities not intangible concepts of names. The Waffen-SS didn't kill people, it was the men that made up the Waffen-SS. You could say that I am splitting hairs but the distinction is important. Yeah and use this logic you could argue that the mafia and the bloods are good organizations with a few bad men... please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: OK, granted the horrible atrocities committed in the concentration camps, what makes other such concentration camps around the world any less harsh? What about the American camps for Japanese-Americans caught in the middle of a tense situation? These camps were created for the very same reason that the Jewish concentration camps were in Europe. And that was racism. Only the US camps didn't have furnaces. They were not for the same reasons. While the American camps were foolish and wrong it was never the intent or plan to exterminate the Japanese-Americans. Pathetic that you have to try and compare the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: what makes other such concentration camps around the world any less harsh It doesn't, and no one is talking about them except you. Oradour or My Lai or Shatila, they are one and the same. Why do you want to explain them away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: What about the American camps for Japanese-Americans caught in the middle of a tense situation? These camps were created for the very same reason that the Jewish concentration camps were in Europe. And that was racism. Only the US camps didn't have furnaces. Your best bet would be to edit this post entirely. Crystal City was not Sobibor. They're absolutely not comparable. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SS Peiper Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: While there was a close tie between Totenkopf Division and the camps, I don't see any connection between HJ, say, or Handschar, or any of the other divs, except in a conincidental way. Let's be fair. Maximus raises an interesting question. I agree that many SS formations were substandard, and that even in the "good" ones, their ingrained aggressiveness and lack of regard for casualties made them less than supreme - but since they got first crack at new weapons (by 1944), this partially compensated. I agree with Michael The Totenkopf Div had ties with the camps but I have never heard of a LASSAH or a HJ that worked for the camps. As for warcrimes ALL countrys had them you just dont hear about the atrocities made by the winning side. I have film (from the History Chl.) were you see U.S. troopes kill a German Sniper after he had given up. I have also read were Canadian Troops kill a bunch of SS POWs at Normandy. SS Peiper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oberly Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 This one will be no different. Too true,my email buddy-now where's your next turn? As for 'these things need to be discussed'-my question is,what on earth does this topic have to do with CM? I would advise anyone who thinks the Waffen SS has been given a bad break by history to read 'Soldiers of Destruction',a balanced view that cuts through the myth.It only covers the Totenkopf division,however. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Only the US camps didn't have furnaces. I think I just threw up over my keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Kingfish: Jeff, If I had the time and desire I could dig up at least a dozen threads on the BBS about the SS, war crimes, etc... and each one will have a padlock on the end. This one will be no different. I have no doubt that you could, but you apparently missed my point entirely. My point is that men do evil as individuals. Sure, a group of men may commit the crime but most of the time it comes down to a few men who are in control and give the orders to be followed out. For example, the Nazi party is vilified and hated throughout the world but it is a fact that a large percentage of the German population during WWII were members in the Nazi party. So, then this begs the question, were all these people evil? I think not. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by jshandorf: I have no doubt that you could, but you apparently missed my point entirely. My point is that men do evil as individuals. Sure, a group of men may commit the crime but most of the time it comes down to a few men who are in control and give the orders to be followed out. For example, the Nazi party is vilified and hated throughout the world but it is a fact that a large percentage of the German population during WWII were members in the Nazi party. So, then this begs the question, were all these people evil? I think not. Jeff hi Jeff, He was talking to me. ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by CavScout: Yeah and use this logic you could argue that the mafia and the bloods are good organizations with a few bad men... please. I have never said that the Waffen-SS, or for that matter, the mafia, were like a jaycess group with a few twisted evil leaders. I am saying that in an enlightened society individuals should be judged on their individual actions, not the actions of the group as a whole. You never cease to amaze me with your broad generalizations, simplifications, and strawman tactics. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted March 5, 2001 Author Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Chupacabra: Maximus - You call for open-mindedness, but then attack people who bring up evidence which contradicts yours as being 'biased.' Try being a bit open-minded yourself. You can't bring up a topic and then get into a snit because not everyone agrees with you. From your behavior it seems that you don't want a discussion, you want everyone to tell you how right you are. Hey contrare monfrare, I am not arguing with anybody. I mearely stated what I heard on the program and then looked some information up on the internet and provided it and then gave a synapsis of what the information said. As for these other sources, what makes them accurate? I have no doubts that the holocaust did happen, but that doesn't mean that that sort of behavior was limited to the SS of Germany. OK, so what if there was a cycle between Waffen SS wounded and Allgemeine SS guards and vice versa. What I don't understand why there is such hatred towards the SS when many other nations had their own dark groups that did the same thing. Is it because Germany ended up losing and now the SS are the scapegoats for these atrocities? ------------------ "Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator "Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot "I do what I likes, and I likes what I do."--Darrell Hammond (portraying Bill Clinton), SNL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunstler Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Talk about the SS gets pretty passionate on this site, for various reasons. I think it's probably best to just leave the topic alone, but I thought I'd make a post regarding the Waffen SS taking exception to being linked to the Al-SS. Sepp Dietrich, a general of an SS division during the war (Hitler's bodyguard), had a joke he liked to tell at reunions of SS troops after the war. He would hold up a butane lighter before the audience and ask them rhetorically, "What is this? A jew nostalgic for the camps!" This would be met with roars of laughter from the Waffen-SS veterans. Otto Skorzeny set up organizations for former SS members to escape to South America but made not distinction between Waf-SS and Al-SS veterans. After the war he remained a devout nazi, like Dietrich and many other SS members who showed not a single regret over the holocaust. Otto Dirlewanger and his troops are another fine example of the SS. Their loyalty is their honour is right. Ferocious, fanatical, but (in my opinion) misled and poisoned by a hateful ideology, many members of the SS endorsed the propaganda they were plied with. Not all, certainly. Even some camp guards refused to take part in the killings. But as an organization, the Waffen-SS does have a blacker record than the service branches of the German military. kunstler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 So, what "myth" precisely are you dispelling here? I'm a little confused.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Stoffel: You are wrong about your ideas,the waffen(armed ) SS had direct control and ties with the concentrationcampsystem!!! For instance read Soldiers of Destruction. written by prof. C .W. Sydnor. ... In the case of the 2nd SS division Totenkopf this was very accurate documented. ... I can citate the whole book to you but that will be a problem,I say just buy it and read it! Than you will change your mind soon! I hesitate to jump in here on such an emotionally charged subject, but Stoffel has wandered astray. Soldiers of Destruction is about the 3rd SS division Totenkopf, which did have a unique and close association with the camps and mass-murder. That's one of the main points in the book, which Stoffel appears to have missed, that it was a unique relationship with this one division. It is incorrect to then make a gross assumption and apply this same connection to the other Waffen-SS units. Originally posted by CeeJee: But their victims found out what happens when you convince men they are better and everyone else is less. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdcarcajou Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Max, First off, don't resort to incidents in SPR, or any other movie for that matter, to make an argument. As well made as the film was, it was not a documentary. Sure, people do bad things in war, but films do not count as historical evidence. Second, while every nation is guilty to lesser and greater degrees of committing war crimes, no nation's behaviour excuses any other. In the discussion of whether or not the Waffen-SS were guilty of war crimes, Russian atrocities are irrelevant. As are American, British or Canadian atrocities. An "unfortunate" side effect of teaching men how to kill and giving them guns to do it, is that when stress levels are high and adrenaline is pumping, judgment is often clouded. Shooting prisoners happens. Angry men do bad things, especially when their friends and compatriots get shot. I am not excusing the behavious, but I understand why it happens. In the case of the Waffen-SS, these events happened with more regularity than with other nations/units. They also committed crimes outside the scope of front line action. Not every SS soldier was a murderer, but certainly they were not all saints either. Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted March 5, 2001 Author Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Jagdcarcajou: Second, while every nation is guilty to lesser and greater degrees of committing war crimes, no nation's behaviour excuses any other. In the discussion of whether or not the Waffen-SS were guilty of war crimes, Russian atrocities are irrelevant. As are American, British or Canadian atrocities. Way to contradict yourself there. You started out saying that "no nation's behavior excuses another" and then you go on to say that "the (Allied) atrocities are irrelevant when discussing the Waffen SS's." Gee, so you are excusing the Allies' attrocities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Stoffel, I read Sydnor's excellent book couple of years ago (Steve recommended it in an ancient thread) and I got a bit different impression. I.e. the whole Totenkopf-division was somewhat a special case. Eicke (who created the whole concentrationcamp system) wanted to show that he could create an elite division from the men he had. And so he did by using the resources of his camps. This caused conflicts with some other organs of the allgemeine SS. The other Waffen SS division weren't even nearly as much connected to the camp system. Wehrmacht, for instance, despised Totenkopf division far more than other SS divisions. Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Maximus wrote: And the Russians didn't commit any atrocities either? Gimme a break. And where in particular did I claim that Soviets didn't commit atrocities? You may stop searching now, since I haven't and don't claim that. On the contrary and for an example, I think that the highly-regarded partisan-leader Alexander Smirnov should be tried for his deliberate attacks against civilians, but that is a completely different matter. My point on the posting was: that one single Finnish SS-volunteer witnessed the murders of almost 150 people in his short time in the front and grew so disgusted that he was ready to kill his platoon leader. Note that he wrote his book ("Haudat Dneprin varrella") in 1945 and had a real possibility of getting into serious trouble by writing it. (A fact that he acknowledged in the preface). - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdcarcajou Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: Way to contradict yourself there. You started out saying that "no nation's behavior excuses another" and then you go on to say that "the (Allied) atrocities are irrelevant when discussing the Waffen SS's." Gee, so you are excusing the Allies' attrocities. There is no contradiction above. Re-read it Maximus. If logic escapes you, I can't help. Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Originally posted by jshandorf: It is my belief that men commit atrocities not intangible concepts of names. The Waffen-SS didn't kill people, it was the men that made up the Waffen-SS. You could say that I am splitting hairs but the distinction is important. Just as there have always been men in battle who commit atrocities, murder, raped, call it what you like, the Waffen-SS just had a disproportionate amount of men who did these things. The men of the Waffen-SS are no more evil then any man who preys on the innocent and helpless. For example, in the Korean war it has been documented that US troops machine gunned unarmed women and children who were trying to flee south from the invading N. Korean army. Since the American commanders at the time were worried about saboteurs and spies infiltrating the rear areas these US troops were instructed to allow NO Korean people past them. Apparently some Officer took this to mean they should shoot any group trying to make it past them. Men do evil, not organizations. Jeff Rabaatzn (sp?) - this was an SS word for "fun while murdering." It was indoctrinated into W-SS men in Russia - it is why they murdered Canadian POWs, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Forget it, Tommi. One can't argue with a hot-head. His argument has gone from "Waffen SS weren't killers" to "So what? Everybody else was doin' it." Leave him to his fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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