Waffen SS: Let's dispel the myth.

[Guest barrold713]

I am assuming that from the lack of flaming response that perhaps I had the right take on the show and the attempt to relate it to CM.

Maximus' original and subsequent posts were IMMO nothing more than an attempt to share information on the program, not to use it as definitive proof that the SS weren't bad guys. Things soon degenerated into a man the barricades type of defensive position as a response to the passionate posts this kind of subject is likely to generate.

It is possible that everyone is correct in one or another as events in war tend not to be black or white but a maddening variety of grey shades. Is it possible for an SS soldier to be a more honorable person than a member of the allied armies? A comparison individual by individual might show this to be true, but it would obviously ludicrous to then extrapolate some individual result into a generalization about the entire organization.

To make even that truth more ethically confusing is the hard fact that the level of atrocities and behavior of the SS cannot entirely erase the taint against the organization regardless of the actions of an individual within it.

It is perfectly understandable that any effort to look at the military effectiveness of the SS is going to generate a heated debate, but it should not make someone who attempts the difficult chore of pure historical objectivity automatically into a glorifier/holocaust-denier/historical revisionist.

The wrong headed approach to be objective would be to attempt to morally level the playing field with the use of examples of atrocities that troops of other countries were involved in. With few exceptions, there would be little evidence that these things were less abberations than an organizational trait. The SS is going to more or less be defined greatly by the organizational taint where other military units are not due to the preponderance of evidence but this doesn't mean that someone should feel guilty about winning a CM game playing with SS units. Neither should one feel guilty about finding the History Channel's program to be interesting or the veterans comments to be intriguing.

Hope I am being fair and coherent. If not please feel free to calibrate me.

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[Forever Babra]

Originally posted by greywolf:

Most were not nazi's...But I didn't see specifically where they were ordered to perform any types of attrocities...

God save us from thinkers and fools. To listen to you people, it's like it never happened at all.

At the risk of the inevitable ban, have a gander. Tell me again how good these Waffen SS types were, how innocent.

http://www.paradisemodel.com/nazi.gif

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by jshandorf:

The fire bombing of Dresden.

"That night, however, RAF Bomber Command despatched

[This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 03-05-2001).]

You're no longer worth my time. Believe what you want.

[Terence]

Originally posted by barrold713:

The SS is going to more or less be defined greatly by the organizational taint where other military units are not due to the preponderance of evidence but this doesn't mean that someone should feel guilty about winning a CM game playing with SS units. Neither should one feel guilty about finding the History Channel's program to be interesting or the veterans comments to be intriguing.

This all seems perfectly reasonable to me. I suspect the heated reaction to the initial post was because it suggested a gross oversimplification of reality.

[Guest Madmatt]

How many times must this tired poor and purely off-topic theme of WWII atrocities be dredged up on this forum before people get the message that:

A) No ones opinions are going to be swayed one way or the other by such a passionate topic.

and more importantly

It's completely off topic to the aim of this Combat Mission Forum.

Now then, if you want to Dispel the Myths of the Waffen SS then fine, but do it somewhere else as its come up here a hundred times before and ended with a resounding clang of a padlock each time since people refuse to debate these matters objectively.

And I completely understand that. You are talking about some of the most brutal and savage events to ever occur in the history of man and if anything our humble little forum is not worthy of such discussions.

Regardless, here is not the place and the past has shown that they can not be conducted in a way in accordance to the Forum rules. As such this topic (and any other ones that want to go in depth on the Waffen SS's brutality, Concentration Camps, The Holocaust, Nazism, Killing of Prisoners etc...) are not tolerated here. Not because they aren't important to discuss but because of the quite simple fact that they have nothing to do with the GAME of Combat Mission.

The History Channel has a Chat and Forum system, since it was a History Channel show that prompted this discussion perhaps that would be a good place to continue with this.

Madmatt