Splash Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Recently I've played a quick battle where I was a defending German -- the game gave me 3 20mm flak guns. The town was in a valley and both sides cleanly held the valley ridges facing across town. At the outset the flaks had los on all their armour and I let them open up -- they proceeded to destroy everything; even the tanks -- immobilsed them then wrecked their guns so that they were abandoned. For sitting on hill why buy anything else? An AT gun only draws attention to itself. What's your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Agreed, I had once a 20mm Flak make wonders in the "Medal of Honor" scenario... it disabled a Firefly ! This thing is a real killer, ROF is incredible, however it is'nt very useful vs infantry, the shells make useless *puffs* injuring noone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Hehe - the 20mm AA gun was my suggestion for the unit to use in the Scenario Talk thread on the Gamiest Units (still there if you want a look). Also I started a thread in the Tips & Tricks section on how to get rid of the little sods. They are ridiculously cheap, play havoc with infantry and any armour which tries to take them on (usually you'll receive hits destroying the gun or tracks before you can take them out), and often can only be safely disposed of with precious and expensive artillery. The best alternative way we found was to use the Brit 3" mortar on map, or very carefully and with a fair amount of luck sneak up a tank to do area fire next to the 20mm gun without actually being in view of it. My weekend TCP QB games are getting full of them which is already pretty annoying, and we're thinking of agreeing on a no purchase rule beforehand. I'm not even sure how often they were used in the front line anyway. IMHO I'd like to see their cost go up and their ability to wreck Tanks go down. Just MHO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splash Posted October 3, 2001 Author Share Posted October 3, 2001 Admittedly they are not damaging against infantry but because of that rapid ROF they were useful (until I discovered their armour capabilties) for suppressing fire in order to do a defensive retreat. With them suddenly blazing away you can usually get the troops out with minimum damage. But that was then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Totally agree, while they don't seem to inflict many casualties on squads, watch them at work on a non-veteran platoon in particular and they can drive them to ground or rout them in short order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 the 2cm is not a wonderweapon, but of course the 2cm has its place within a combined force. but you cannot rely on it just like that. it is next to useless against infantry. it is not very effective against any tank's front. the sherman is largely immune to it from any aspect IIRC. to be effective it depends upon favorable terrain, and you never know what kind of terrain you will get in a QB. in your above example, what if there were no trees on those hills? if there is only a small patch of woods, it will receive attention as a likely position even though you never fired a single shot! or if the whole map is pretty confined, and the opponent advances with an infantry screen before his tanks (as he should)? or if it is largely a city fight? in essence, the 2cm can be a very lethal weapon (just like the 3.7cm, or the allied 40mm AA), but it requires the right circumstances. Like someone once said, everything can kill everything under the right circumstances. [ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I don't get it. How can a puny little gun like the 20mm flak take out Allied armor? At 500m, the numbers are 19mm penetration at 30 degrees and 24mm at 0 degrees. I can't even imagine one of these things taking out tanks from the side, let alone the front. How is this possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 The only way I imagine a 20mm FlaK getting a tank kill is from being on a much higher elevation which exposes a tank's naturally thin armor on the top. You definitely don't need a 75/76mm gun for that easy job. With the ROF of the 20mm I assume it makes it a bit more dangerous at higher elevations. The 37mm FlaK and I believe the Allies' 40mm Bofors are quite nice though a bit more pricey (I've used the 37mm waay more. Tried the Bofors maybe 1-2 times). The 37mm can kill a Stuart from the flank and it still retains a high ROF. Quite nice and the 37mm has a blast value of 26 while the 20mm has a whopping 6. High ROF + Good blast value = Infantry killer. Not to mention the high ROF can get you to damage enemy AFVs (immobility, gun hit, etc.). The 37mm is worth more on the field and I believe "less gamey" than the 20mm. [ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't get it. How can a puny little gun like the 20mm flak take out Allied armor? At 500m, the numbers are 19mm penetration at 30 degrees and 24mm at 0 degrees. I can't even imagine one of these things taking out tanks from the side, let alone the front. How is this possible? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Col Deadmarsh, what ususally ends up happening with all high ROF AA guns versus armor is that they get "Immobilized" and "Gun Damaged" hits on the armor, forcing the tanks to be abandoned. Pretty annoying, but... Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangorn Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker: The only way I imagine a 20mm FlaK getting a tank kill is from being on a much higher elevation which exposes a tank's naturally thin armor on the top. You definitely don't need a 75/76mm gun for that easy job. With the ROF of the 20mm I assume it makes it a bit more dangerous at higher elevations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think this is modeled in CMBO. Neither can you achive a top hit with an anti-tank team sitting in the secound floor of a building. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fangorn: I don't think this is modeled in CMBO. Neither can you achive a top hit with an anti-tank team sitting in the secound floor of a building. Can anyone confirm or deny this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, top armor is modelled as I have now lost 2 PSW 234/1 to top penetrations from 60mm mortars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Prompted by this thread I've just had chance to do a (probably not too sceintific) test with 10 20mm AA guns (21 pts each) on a small rise in woods verses 10 M4A3 Shermans (122 points each). All troops were Regulars & there was perfect visibility. I found that the Shermans were unable to spot the AA guns until they were within 250m of the critters. As the 20mms had free shots they soon had half of the Shermans immobilised on the first turn. Then the Gun Damage hits followed and Shermans were being abandoned all over the place by turns 2-3. I then put 3 Rifle platoons on the map to help the Shermans spot, and even they were unable to see the 20mms until they had closed within 300m. Once they had been spotted then the number of Shermans present overwhelmed them, but I never saw less than 3 abandoned and a couple of others with track/gun hits by the end. In short this 21 point unit placed well back can ping away at a 122+ point Tank until it forces a bail out with impunity. Buy a few and let'em rip! Who needs 88mms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangorn Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42: Well, top armor is modelled as I have now lost 2 PSW 234/1 to top penetrations from 60mm mortars.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, but I have not see a top hit with a gun before. I ran a quick test creating a huge cliff (height 19) and got no top hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Well, I have always been a huge proponent of the argument that gun hits are much too frequent. With the fact that you can light up a Sherman with 20mm from the front and disable it completely within 2 turns only adds fuel to my argument. Now where is Slapmonkey to come in here and tell me I am wrong? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker: Quite nice and the 37mm has a blast value of 26 while the 20mm has a whopping 6. High ROF + Good blast value = Infantry killer. Not to mention the high ROF can get you to damage enemy AFVs (immobility, gun hit, etc.). The 37mm is worth more on the field and I believe "less gamey" than the 20mm. [ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree...the 20mm is gamey in terms of over-modeled performance. As far a historical use, I believe that they used 20mm more on the front lines b/c it was less effective against aircraft...conversely they used the 37mm's more towards the rear vs. planes, and didn't risk them so much vs. infs & AFVs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Well, I would argue that the 20mm was a popular and well-liked gun in the German Arsenal. Besides the fact that it is a very common sight in WW2 photos, (trucks and HTs ALWAYS seem to be hauling them or 75 mm guns) it is also true that the Wermacht put this gun on many of its light vehicles, even the Pz IIL which was not produced until 1944, the gun was still the recon weapon of choice. I would like to see some figures on how many were produced, as well as info on the TO&E of 20mm guns. As far as the usage goes, any time a tank is subjected to 2 or more MINUTES of constant fire it will suffer damage. If I was in a sherman and heard 50+ rounds clanking off my hull you bet I would get outta there. I think it is modelled accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader: Well, I would argue that the 20mm was a popular and well-liked gun in the German Arsenal. Besides the fact that it is a very common sight in WW2 photos, (trucks and HTs ALWAYS seem to be hauling them or 75 mm guns) it is also true that the Wermacht put this gun on many of its light vehicles, even the Pz IIL which was not produced until 1944, the gun was still the recon weapon of choice. I would like to see some figures on how many were produced, as well as info on the TO&E of 20mm guns. As far as the usage goes, any time a tank is subjected to 2 or more MINUTES of constant fire it will suffer damage. If I was in a sherman and heard 50+ rounds clanking off my hull you bet I would get outta there. I think it is modelled accurately.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I guess after 2 minutes of firing the enemy tank would suffer a gun or track hit. What puzzles me is why can't the tank see and hit the gun before then with a simple HE shot? Are these 20mm buried so far back in woods that they can't be seen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader: I would like to see some figures on how many were produced, as well as info on the TO&E of 20mm guns. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Heres a pretty good figures page: Feldgrau According to them, 13845 Flak 38 produced for Heer, 121677 20mm barrels on various mounts produced for the Luftwaffe. 2140 Flakvierling 38 were produced. 2106 37mm Flak produced for Heer, 12034 for Luftwaffe. Just food for thought, the Heer got 1170 Flak 88s, whereas the Luftwaffe got 13125. [ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: panzerwerfer42 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen-x87H Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Well, I have always been a huge proponent of the argument that gun hits are much too frequent. " Thier ROF is so high that it does not take long for them to get on the target. Once on the target they can usually ping something that will cause the tank to die. I have never had much luck with 20 mm vs medium to heavy tanks. But the 37mm flak gun can usually beat up on them pretty good if you catch them in a wrong angle. Gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 In SPR during the last battle the Germans were pushing a 20mm through the town, the gamey bastards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 I thought once gun hits or weak point penetrations do happen to often and made a little test: 10 Shermans shooting at 10 unarmed Tigers at 100m, no Tungsten, all pairs seperated. I just counted the hits. Out of 412 hits there were 2 weak point penetrations and 8 gun hits plus 22 track hits. 4 Tigewrs were KOed - two becazuse of the penetrations and two received gun hits plus track hits, the crew terefore abandoning their vehicle. I do not think anymore that gun hits or track hit happen too often, but on the other hand if you line up 10 20mm guns and let then open up, the question is how many shots they get out in a minute. Each burst of a 20mm Flak in CM represents how many bullets? I think if you add up the total numbers of shells shot per minute by 10 20mm Flak it will be a hell of a lot of ammo - with gun hits and track hits resulting. I don't think the unit is real gamey - but it is the same as with the Pueppchen: there were not in every battle 5 or 6 of them... In a QB I played I had -just- one of those little 20mm Flaks - and it got knocked out by a 75mm Howitzer vehicle without firing even one shot! [ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: tools4fools ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Numbers delivered to the Heer for 2-cm Flak 30 und 38 (Luftwaffe had far more): 1939 95 1940 863 1941 873 1942 2,502 1943 3,732 1944 5,041 1945 739 Still on strength in March 1945 6,265 guns. I would venture the guess that the rapid increase between 1942 and 1944 is directly linked to the deteriotating control that the Luftwaffe could exert over the battlefields. The Flak would therefore be seen foremost as an AA weapon. Just a guess though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 This discussion is all rather interesting. I recently used some 20mm Flak guns & sure enough, one of mine managed to get a single track hit in 2 and a half turns of firing against a Sherman 105 which did sweet FA to preventing the Sherman from moving and proceeding to blow the Flak gun away. Then a 2nd 20mm Flak gun of mine fired at the flank of Sherman 105 from approx. 75 metres away for just over 2 full turns. In that time it managed to score one gun hit and yes, you guessed it, the Sherman proceeded to turn its turret and blow the gun away. The bottom line is that they're not that "uber" and if you do purchase them don't assume that any track of gun hits will necessarily be effective. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splash Posted October 4, 2001 Author Share Posted October 4, 2001 Well I'm imagining that if a tank gun gets even the smallest dent it is redendered useless -- Mighty Mouse can fire around 15-20 shells a minute -- but the tracks of the tank always seem to be the first to go. I agree that the gun needs heavy woods cover in order to work its magic but even when it didn't actually kill the tank it made the tank crew move despertately. In the scenario that introduced this thread the tanks always rushed to the bottom (as opposed to retreating under cover) thus allowing the AT guns in the town a few free shots before being located. Let me put this another way -- A sharpshooter cost 18 points, Mostly (or most reliably) you use sshoot's to button tanks. For 3 extra points you get a gun that not only buttons tanks but can kill all light tanks and half tracks and then the bonus of a potential tank incapcitator (it never kills them). No question that if a tank is as near as 75 meters I'd rather have an AT gun but these small artillery pieces are the only thing I've found that can sit on overwatch and never be found. Optimally your troops are well in front of the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdog Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Funny you should bring up 20mm I just had 3 M26 get Immobilized in about 4 turns from long range 20mm. Just bad luck or bug? who can say, but it sure was a bummer. I never play late war, I thought I would have a little fun with the M26 guess not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts