CM2 - Can I buy NKVD Batallions to shoot my own troops?

[easy-v]

Ok, here comes another can of gasoline:

If I recall correctly, Anthony Beevor, in his book Stalingrad : The Fateful Siege, 1942-1943, states that it is estimated that the NKVD inflicted almost as many casualties on the Red Army during the battle of Stalingrad as the Germans did.

I will quote chapter and verse once I get home.

easy-v

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by AcePylut:

Perhaps a batallion of troops is too many given the scope of CM, how about a few special "NKVD" units like a couple of machine guns, a few HQ units, and maybe few squads. These NKVD units would be able to target their own men. IF the eliminate a broken allied squad, all 'friendly' soldiers in sight of this get a morale and combat boost with the possibility of maybe going fanatic. Ahha!!! Perhaps a company of NKVD.

Simple question: Whats to prevent the gamey tactic of automatically withdrawing your troops on turn 1, have a few shot by the NKVD, and have the rest become fanatics for the rest of the battle?

[Jasper]

(sigh)

Ok people try this one:

What's to prevent the discouraged soldiers from firing *back* at the NKVD units?

And how many actually believe that Polish cavalry lowered lances and charged tanks?

"Yea but it'd be so cool if they did!"

[This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Dittohead]

Just why in the hell is everybody in such a hurry to kill their own troops.

Games will not be won or lost depending on how many of your own troops you can gun down.

[AcePylut]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Simple question: Whats to prevent the gamey tactic of automatically withdrawing your troops on turn 1, have a few shot by the NKVD, and have the rest become fanatics for the rest of the battle?

Good point - perhaps they could code the following triggers into the game....

Your NKVD can only target units that are broken/panicing/fleeing (this trigger would be up for discussion). If they shoot troops that aren't any of the above then the rest of the troops don't get the morale boost or the ability to go fanatic. Something along these lines might prevent the "execute a squad before going into battle to boost moral" gameyness tactic.

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[AcePylut]

Originally posted by Dittohead:

Just why in the hell is everybody in such a hurry to kill their own troops.

Games will not be won or lost depending on how many of your own troops you can gun down.

If killing my troops helps me to kill more Germans faster, then I got two things to say....

Gimme a rifle

Pass the ammo.

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[M Hofbauer]

AcePylut,

I didn't want to believe it until now but it seems you really are serious about this. "Battalion of NKVD" - sheeesh, you do know the size of a battalion, don't you?

Offwhite,

you're dead on. I agree fully. Unfortunately, it seems for some people that executing part is exactly what they want to see.

[AcePylut]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

AcePylut,

I didn't want to believe it until now but it seems you really are serious about this. "Battalion of NKVD" - sheeesh, you do know the size of a battalion, don't you?

Offwhite,

you're dead on. I agree fully. Unfortunately, it seems for some people that executing part is exactly what they want to see.

I used the word "batallion" because that's what I'm used to seeing in the history books. Given the scope of CM, I could see having maybe a company (if it's a big battle) or an "NKVD Squad" (inherent in the squad would be a Commissar and a Machine Gun) if it's a small battle.

Like I said, if I'm on a human wave attack and it begins to fail because troops are panicing, then I will - in the gamey spirit of CM2 - begin shooting those troops to prevent widespread panic among all of my troops.

Executing troops may be evil and not the Western Way of doing things, but we aren't talking a "western style" of war. If 100 soldiers have to be executed to win a battle and defeat the hun.... gimme a rifle and gimme some ammo.... it's better that 100 cowards die than 1000 brave soldiers. It's all for the greater good of the USSR.

URRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

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[Croda]

I remember seeing a show (yes, on the History Channel, so feel free to call it all lies) that said in the defense of Moscow, that there were units (which I assume were NKVD) who had set prepared defenses behind the normal front line of defenses and their express purpose was to keep the front line from retreating. By prepared defenses I mean wire, trenches, MGs, the works.

Now, this may well have been a unique circumstance due to the importance of defending Moscow, and was not widely practiced. It may also be the source of many of the reports about the NKVD shooting fleeing troops.

Anyone care to discuss or refute this?

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Woot! - Maximus2k

Stick around while the clown who is sick does the trick of disaster.

You are quite correct, but sniper is an easier term to use than 'Semi-regular soldier hiding out and shooting enemies unawares.' - wwb_99

The New CessPool

I AM CRODA, ENEMY OF THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS, EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS AND REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS. PETERNZ OWNS MY SIG FILE AND MY MEAGRE SOUL: ANY REASONABLE OFFER ACCEPTED

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by AcePylut:

Like I said, if I'm on a human wave attack and it begins to fail because troops are panicing, then I will - in the gamey spirit of CM2 - begin shooting those troops to prevent widespread panic among all of my troops.

Ok, follow along...

Company of conscript russians attack German defenses. 1/3 are killed, 1/3 are pinned and the last 1/3 rout to the rear. NKVD troops gun down the runners. Now your force is down to a 1/3 and your global morale suffers as well. The combination of low global morale and being pinned under German fire causes your remaining men to rout. NKVD troops gun down them as well, leaving you with...

[This message has been edited by Kingfish (edited 03-21-2001).]

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Jasper:

(sigh)

Ok people try this one:

What's to prevent the discouraged soldiers from firing *back* at the NKVD units?

And how many actually believe that Polish cavalry lowered lances and charged tanks?

"Yea but it'd be so cool if they did!"

[This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 03-21-2001).]

Well, actually, at least some Polish cavalry did charge a panzer unit. I don't have the quote at hand, but I recall reading that the Poles had been fed propaganda that the German "tanks" were actually automobiles and trucks with fake wood superstructures. Obviously, they weren't.

And not to forget that these people had a very proud unit history and tradition inculcated in them that dicated fearlessness in the face of the enemy. This was very early in WW2 and many hard lessons were yet to be learned. These unfortunate Poles, fighting for their country and people's very existance, might well have charged on horseback even if they knew they faced real tanks.

Truth is usually stranger than anything we can make up.

[M. Bates]

Originally posted by Croda:

I remember seeing a show (yes, on the History Channel.....

... A thousand eyes leap to the next posting in the topic...

[AcePylut]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Ok, follow along...

Company of conscript russians attack German defenses. 1/3 are killed, 1/3 are pinned and the last 1/3 rout to the rear. NKVD troops gun down the runners. Now your force is down to a 1/3 and your global morale suffers as well. The combination of low global morale and being pinned under German fire causes your remaining men to rout. NKVD troops gun down them as well, leaving you with...

[This message has been edited by Kingfish (edited 03-21-2001).]

Well, if the 1/3rd that's routing sees a few comrades get gunned down by the commissars, then maybe the leftovers of that 1/3rd will get the moral/fanatic bonus. We'll say that 1/3rd of the 1/3rd routing units gets executed, the rest get a morale / fanatic boost. Now, my attack that's been failing has renewed vigor and I can attack with a greater morale/fanatic bonus, albiet with 2/3rds-1/9ths of my troops.

Instead of a failed attack in your scenario- which will happen regardless of what the USSR player can do - I now still have a chance to win.

Also, if these NKVD troops are allowed in the game, perhaps if the Germans were to eliminate the NKVD then all of the Russian units would suffer a morale loss due to the fact that they know they wont get shot (yet) if they run away. That might make CM2 more balanced.

Sure - it's a desperation tactic, but if it works then I'll get a Gold Star on the Fridge from good ole Joe.

[Zakalwe]

About Polish Uhlans charging tanks...

This one seems to be a reference to the battle fought on the very first day of World War II near Krojanty (sp?). A Polish Uhlan regiment made a mounted charge to relieve hard-pressed infantry troops. However, during their charge, German armour appeared and promptly cut the cavalry down.

I've never come across any references of Polish cavalry charging tanks on purpose. Granted, I'm not a serious student of the Polish campaign, but this story seems like typical mix of misunderstanding and exaggeration so common with battle narratives.

[M Hofbauer]

gunnergoz, this is exactly the kind of hogwash BS that Jasper had in mind.

Think of Polish cavalry as a higly mobile infantry, switching trucks for horses. They would fight from horseback as much as other infantry would fight from their trucks. It made quite a bit of sense when you take into consideration the condition the infrastructure of poland was in w/r/t roads.

Those Polish soldiers weren't dumb, you really expect they would believe that tanks are made opf cardboard?

There was only one recorded incident where a Polish cavalry unit charged german tanks *mounted* = on horseback. That was the 18. Regiment near Krojanty, September 1st. What actually happened was that the Poles en route through a forest with scatered trees accidentally ran into unexpected german armor that appeared from around a bend/curve in the road. With their horses panicking under the machine gun fire, they were unable to do an orderly about face / turnaround.

The german propaganda then turned it into a fairy tale about dumb poles attacking armor with sabres and lances. Yeah, sure.

And you are gullible enough to believe it, even more than 60 years later...

Now that you revealed yourself as a shameless non-grog, go into the corner and do some reading. But this time a real book, not propaganda or fairy tales again!

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Ace,

Don'tcha wish SFC2 worked as well as CMBO? Your busy on both of these boards, lol.

Rebel Yell (on the Taldren Forums)

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Give a man fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for a lifetime.

[AcePylut]

Originally posted by Vergeltungswaffe:

Ace,

Don'tcha wish SFC2 worked as well as CMBO? Your busy on both of these boards, lol.

Rebel Yell (on the Taldren Forums)

LOL I see you posted in the Enemy at the Gates thread over there.

Now if the Klingons only had NKVD Bird's of Prey to kill any Kling that tried to run from a battle......

[Michael Dorosh]

I take it the comment about Poles charging tanks with cavalry was facetious, but since M. Hofbauer has chosen to adress it differently, I'll throw this in for interest's sake.

I once asked a German vet who the best soldiers he ever fought against were - he said the Poles. He fought in Poland, France 1940, Russia, Italy, Normandy, the Bulge and made it through to the end of the war, most of it with Panzer Lehr Division and its forerunners.

The Poles had a very professional army, but my understanding is that they were tied to poor defensive lines by politics - withrdrawing to defensible river lines would have meant abandoning something like a third of their territory from the outset of the war. Even so, given the Russian invasion from the east and the unwillingness of France and Britain to help, it is hard to say how long they could have held out even in that instance. But my interviewee assured me the

Poles were indeed tough, smart soldiers - especially compared to the French, and he was too polite to say it to my face, but yes, even the Canadians, whom I think he held in low regard (understandably so).

A lot to base on one interview, but I think many historians have agreed, as M. Hofbauer does, that the Poles were not simply pushovers.

Not that I interpreted the cavalry comments as an indictment of them, but I for one was surprised to hear from a German vet himself that the Poles were that good, and surprised even further to see this confirmed by scholars as well.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Originally posted by AcePylut:

LOL I see you posted in the Enemy at the Gates thread over there.

Now if the Klingons only had NKVD Bird's of Prey to kill any Kling that tried to run from a battle......

That's what the new maulers will be for, to blast anyone that thinks they need to "disengage",

Edit: btw, nice catch on the wrong rail gauge, a true grog at work!

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Give a man fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for a lifetime.

[This message has been edited by Vergeltungswaffe (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Croda]

Originally posted by M. Bates:

... A thousand eyes leap to the next posting in the topic...

It certainly is good to have insightfull commentary like this in a public forum so that everyone can benefit.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Not that I interpreted the cavalry comments as an indictment of them, but I for one was surprised to hear from a German vet himself that the Poles were that good, and surprised even further to see this confirmed by scholars as well.

I have found one possible source of this in a book called 'Battlegroup' by James Lucas. He reprints the translated letter of a German soldier that was published in an anthology of letters published by the Reichspropagandaministerium. Here is the relevant passage:

'A Panzerman told me that his unit was attacked by enemy cavalry. Imagine, sabres against steel. A prisoner taken after one such charge is said to have told the interrogating officer that his regiment had been assured the Panzers were made either of cardboard or wood and sacking . My Panzer informant recalled seeing one officer ride up to one of the vehicles in his squadron, rise up in the stirrup and give a vicious downward stroke with his sabre. This shattered in his hand and the Pole looked dumbfounded. Immediately he fired a pistol at the Panzer, finally shooting himself, determined to die rather than surrender.'

You make of that what you will, but to me two things are clear - first it is great propaganda (German Ubertanks bring modern warfare to the proud but stupid Pole, that'll show them) and hearsay (my Panzer informant recalled; a prisoner taken is said to have). If the other sources for the cavalry charges are as good, I think it can safely be discarded.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Guest machineman]

I don't have anything to add to the story other than all the German army was equiped with was actually dummy 'tanks' (ordinary vehicles made into tank like shapes with canvas and wood) for a number of years. The Panzer I (with a whopping .3 inch of armor on the roof and .5 everywhere else) began entering service by mid '34, only five years before the invasion of Poland. The mighty Panzer II (ha ha) did not hit full production status until 1937.

[This message has been edited by machineman (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Skipper]

The skinny here is that blocking squads (or detachments) were employed widely for about 1 year, mainly in roadblocks, sometimes immediately behind positions of "suspect" units, such as those drafted from convicted criminals.

When I say "widely", it means that if you desert your unit and try to leave the combat zone, you would very likely hit one of those roadblocks. Or, if you get lost after a retreat and are going around looking for your unit - same story. You would then be quickly interrogated and one of the following would happen to you:

(a) be sent to your unit,

( be sent to another unit hastily formed from retreating troops;

© be executed on spot;

(d) be executed in front of your unit one day later.

According to the report on activities of blocking squads I've read once, in 99% of cases it was actually (a) or (. One roadblock would sometimes have to handle several hundred people per day - there was no time for obseving justice, human rights etc. Martial law (russian version, at least) puts victory first.

Some more comments.

Almost all pre-war NKVD divisions were in fact border guards. During the mobilisation, more were formed and they were supposed to be used to provide security behind the lines, to control captured territories and finally, to fight as regular infantry if situation so dictates. That's what they did throughout the war.

Executions on the battlefield were not uncommon (basically, all commanders were given this right and pretty much did it at their discretion). However, my impression is that we are talking about situations where one guy would be shot to give an example to a company. That was usually enough to get the message across. Defectors would be shot at the back by their own peers, too.

"Political officer" and "comissar" are the same thing, essentially.

> Guys, the Germans shot, imprisoned, or

> assigned to penal battalions 3.3% of their

> total mobilized combat force. The Soviets

> did so for an estimated 1.25%. How come I

> don't see any German units being able to

> shoot their own fleeing troops?

Good point The reason is simple: western version of Eastern Front is written by germans and heavily influenced by anti-soviet propaganda.

Btw, somebody please tell me, what western allies did with defectors at that time?

> it was really....uhm...strange to have

> these friendly looking grampas tell over a

> cup of tea how they had shot and killed

> like that

That was different time, sure. Imagine yourself a similar interview with, say, spanish conquistadors or crusaders.

> read Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago"

Only if you want to sample the best of the antisoviet propaganda genre. If you are after history, avoid this author altogether.

> Anthony Beevor states that it is estimated

> that the NKVD inflicted almost as many

> casualties on the Red Army during the

> battle of Stalingrad as the Germans did.

If he really states so, his book's place is in the garbage. That's most ridiculous of all the ridiculous estimates I've ever seen.

[tss]

Skipper wrote:

sometimes immediately behind positions of "suspect" units, such as those drafted from convicted criminals.

Finns also formed few units from convicted criminals. The experience was that approximately 1/3 of them would either run away or defect to the enemy during the first days of combat. Those 2/3 who stayed were as reliable as normal units.

Almost all pre-war NKVD divisions were in fact border guards.

At least some of those border guard units were among the best Soviet formations. They were well-trained and well-motivated. I'm not certain if all were, but at least those who guarded the border in Northern Karelia were.

However, my impression is that we are talking about situations where one guy would be shot to give an example to a company.

There were cases (mostly early-war) where an incompetent officer (most often political) would give an impossible or otherwise patently stupid order and then execute one or two guys who tried to persuade him to cancel the order.

For example, one Winter War veteran told in an interview that he saw one occasion where a tank driver was killed in that manner. I can't remember the exact details, but the basic idea was that the politruk ordered the tank to advance and secure a Finnish village (that was incidentally ~10 km behind the front line at the moment). Alone. In dark. Driving along a forest road that was most probably held by Finns. When the driver tried to reason with the politruk, he drew his pistol and shot the driver.

Btw, somebody please tell me, what western allies did with defectors at that time?

I don't know about Western allies but I can give some light on Finnish behavior. First, it was quite rare for a Finn to voluntarily defect to Soviet lines. In general, the attitude of common soldiers seemed to be "good riddance and hope you are happy in Soviet POW camps".

However, there was also the case of Finnish communists who had defected to Soviet Union before war, in 1920's and 1930's. Those who had survived Stalin's purges were employed in the Red Army and fought mostly in Karelia. Finnish troops generally regarded them as traitors and I know of one event when one of them was summarily executed immediately after capture. There may have been more. Those who were captured faced Court Martial. Most were sentenced to prison, some were freed altogether, and some were executed. I don't know exact figures.

- Tommi

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Skipper:

> Anthony Beevor states that it is estimated

> that the NKVD inflicted almost as many

> casualties on the Red Army during the

> battle of Stalingrad as the Germans did.

If he really states so, his book's place is in the garbage. That's most ridiculous of all the ridiculous estimates I've ever seen.

He doesn't state that. He gives examples of Russian soldiers being shot for cowardice and desertion often on very flimsy evidence, but nowhere does he give numbers for the executions. Given that the book was written with access to NKVD documents, it's probable that no such figures exist, which as they were often summary in the middle of a desperate battle is not surprising.

[This message has been edited by Firefly (edited 03-22-2001).]