AcePylut Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 A common practice in the Red Army was to place NKVD batallions behind attacking Soviet troops with the express purpose of shooting any Soviet that fled from the battlefield. I assume that this makes the average Red Army soldier a little less prone to break and run, so I ask this.... Will CM2 allow us to purchase NKVD troops and shoot our own men that are broken or panicking? After I shoot my own men then maybe CM2 could model this by giving the troops that are left a bonus to their morale (or a penalty to their morale which makes them more suspectable to capture)? In CC3 I was always fond of shooting enemy troops that surrendered, and now perhaps I get the glory of shooting my own men in the name of the Mother Russia. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksak Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Wierd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunoReactor Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 You should be put in a time machine and sent to Kiev, 1941 as a punishment. As a Soviet Conscript, no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Um, yes well. Also, it wasn't -that- common. It happened, but not as often as people might think. PeterNZ ------------------ - Official owner of the sig files of Dalem, Croda and JeffShandorf - Der Kessel scenario design group Combat Vision movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Now I have read that such units existed and according to the Red Army reenacting ring I belong to it definintely did happen. However such activities are beyond the scope of CM. You might as well try to simulate firing squads for cowardice under fire. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Disregarding his rather strange messege, let us concentrate on the actual question which I would also like to see answered. Please dont concentrate on how he asked this question, but on what was asked. NKVD, commissars, and if I am not mistaken "political officers" were all infamous for shooting fleeing soldiers. So if some of those fleeing get shot down, the rest would usually stop running and face a death of a "coward" (in the USSR the definition of someone who would rather live) or a "hero" (the guy who doesnt know better then to charge a Nazi machine gun). Hey, if youre going to die anyway, why not take some of the enemy with you? This question STILL isnt answered, as far as I know, and I would like feedback from Steve, Charles, Kwazy, or Matt. EDIT: In responce to MikeT's mssg. If NKVD are beyond CM's scope, which units are not? Commissars? I would think they were relatively close to the action, while NKVD were farther behind the line. ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" [This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 03-20-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Were entire battalions of political officers employed behind the lines? How far? Would shootings take place in the face of the enemy - or out of the scope of a CM battle? I don't know, which is why I ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoot Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 If you wish to know how common such mistreatment of the Soviet soldier was, which was very, I might add, read Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago". Although it mainly covers his years in various Gulag's and labor camps, it also covers his arrest (at the front during an arty shelling) and the reasons for it (a greedy NKVD officer who coveted his nifty map-case). Soldiers of the NKVD had quotas to fill which not only included the arrest of x number of "traitors to the State" and common criminals (free labor), but also the execution of x number of saboteurs (typically ANYONE who owned ANYTHING) and "inciters of revolution"or "freethinkers". This was most common during Uncle Joe's reign and especially during the war. Maybe the presence of NKVD could act as some sort of combat modifier similar to an HQ unit while lowering morale slightly. In other words, the Soviet soldiers would be spurred to greater effort with guns at their backs, but they wouldn't be happy about it. Clubfoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Originally posted by Clubfoot: If you wish to know how common such mistreatment of the Soviet soldier was, which was very, I might add, read Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago". Although it mainly covers his years in various Gulag's and labor camps, it also covers his arrest (at the front during an arty shelling) and the reasons for it (a greedy NKVD officer who coveted his nifty map-case). Soldiers of the NKVD had quotas to fill which not only included the arrest of x number of "traitors to the State" and common criminals (free labor), but also the execution of x number of saboteurs (typically ANYONE who owned ANYTHING) and "inciters of revolution"or "freethinkers". This was most common during Uncle Joe's reign and especially during the war. Maybe the presence of NKVD could act as some sort of combat modifier similar to an HQ unit while lowering morale slightly. In other words, the Soviet soldiers would be spurred to greater effort with guns at their backs, but they wouldn't be happy about it. Clubfoot. Excellent info, but would NKVD troops carry out summary executions while under German fire? My question still stands. Is it really something we need to see in CM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoot Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Well, not under enemy fire anyway. But when your routed troops flee over that hilltop and 200 m. through those trees to their rally point only to find their Company HQ alongside a freshly arrived squad of Blue board thugs, their choices would historically have been to run BACK towards the enemy, or face incoming fire from the NKVD. Clubfoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Cool, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Will we get to shoot Soviet Political Officers we capture as Germans? Maybe give German units a morale bonus when they execute Political officers, i.e. the Commisar order? Perhaps we can buy a gallows unit and hang prisoners as well.... -John [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 03-20-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Originally posted by Tiger: Will we get to shoot Soviet Political Officers we capture as Germans? Maybe give German units a morale bonus when they execute Political officers, i.e. the Commisar order? Perhaps we can buy a gallows unit and hang prisoners as well.... -John [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 03-20-2001).] German executions were carried out away from the firing line, as were hangings. Silly boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOne Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 At the beginning of the war Independent NKVD Line Divisions, complete with artillery and armour, were formed in the new GUOV (Chief Directorate of Operational Forces). In June 1941 47 ground and 6 naval Frontier Guards Regiments and 11 other NKVD combat Regiments contained approximately 100,000 men. These were formed into 15 divisions. Destroyer (Istribitelyniy) Battalions were formed in Soviet towns and cities to perform rear area security and hunt down enemy agents and parachutists. The infamous Blocking Detachments (Zagraditelniy Otryady) were formed, primarily from GUPV (Frontier Guards) Special Forces Battalions. Many NKVD units were cited for distinction during the war including: - Defensive battles in Belorussia, Latvia and Estonia: 42nd, 132nd and 155th Independent Convoy Battalions. - Defence of Riga and Tallin: 22nd NKVD Rifle Division and 3rd NKVD Railroad Division. - Defence of Kiev: 5th, 10th and 13th NKVD Rifle Divisions. - Defence of Odessa: 249th Convoy Regiment. - Defence of the Western Ukraine: 21st NKVD Cavalry Regiment. - Defence of Rostov: 230th Convoy Regiment. - Defence of Leningrad: 1st, 20th, 21st and 22nd NKVD Rifle Divisions. - Defence of Moscow: 34th, 70th, 111th, 115th, 156th, 160th and 207th NKVD Rifle Regiments. - Battle for Stalingrad: 10th NKVD Division. - The 70th Army, formed in December 1941 entirely of NKVD Frontier Guards and Interior Troops, fought at Kursk and Berlin. In 1943 there were 1210 NKVD garrisons in liberated areas of the USSR: 74 regimental, 346 battalion and 790 company garrisons. From Shawn Caza's very informative site on the Cheka Security apparatus. http://members.tripod.com/~otlichnik/history.html Ghost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Commissar, about the commmissar units. From what I understand the commissars were strictly a political unit that briefed the common troops on what they wanted them to know and watched/corrected their loyalty. Now this would seem beyond the scope of CM2. They should be considered part of the part of the command team. I do think that NKVD troops were real area police forces that rounded up units en masse leaving the combat area. This would also seem to be outside the scope of CM since these NKVD in this role would be miles behind the front lines. But they also served as combat units whenever necessary. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Once again, Dmitry Loza's book Fighting for the Soviet Motherland comes up with an intesting and applicable anecdote. What's more, it doesn't even involve NKVD units and makes clear that draconian measures were called from on occasion from line units. Loza describes a situatation where his unit of lend-lease Matildas encountered Soviet infantry troops that had broken and were retreating towards Loza's tanks accross a big grassy field as Loza's tanks were moving forward to counter-attack. Loza's superiors ordered his unit to stop the panic and possible collapse of nearby infantry units by firing at the retreating Soviet soldiers. Loza's people quickly compromised by firing their tank m.g.'s above and in front of the retreating panicked troops. At first the troops just dived to earth, then some stood up and tried to continue running away. The Matildas were again ordered to fire and this time the rounds hit several soldiers. This stopped the retreat and officers soon came forward to rally the surviving infantry back towards their defensive positions. Loza attributes the success of the defensive battle to this hard choice that had to be made in order to prevent a total collapse of the forces involved. Perhaps not what we in the West might have done, but it was a decision that was apparently supported and understood by those Russians who were present. In that sense, firing upon friendly troops seems to have fulfilled a higher moral order prioritizing national over individual survival. It reflects the priorities of this culture at that particular time. Messy, but effective. The question is, how could CM2 simulate such doctrine and events, which was apparently not an uncommon occurrence on the East Front battlefields? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Ok, ask yourself this... does CM currently allow you to buy SS to shoot fleeing Germans (probably as common as KKVD shooting Russians)? No? Then there probably will not be any NKVD to shoot fleeing Russians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 MikeT, Thanks for clearing that up. Still would like some representation of shooting fleeing conscripts though... Berli, I had no idea this happened. Care to site some examples? Im interested since the NKVD is famous for it's deeds while the SS is famous for murdering civilians. ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Guys, the Germans shot, imprisoned, or assigned to penal battalions 3.3% of their total mobilized combat force. The Soviets did so for an estimated 1.25%. How come I don't see any German units being able to shoot their own fleeing troops? ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Incidently here is an article on "blocking detachments" by David Glantz. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Commissar wrote: I had no idea this happened. Care to site some examples? Im interested since the NKVD is famous for it's deeds while the SS is famous for murdering civilians. The NKVD is infamous also for the crimes it exerted onto their own soviet population. There were several occasions were they shot ordinary citizen, peasants etc. simply because these people chose to flee and the soviets didn't want them to. There was an interview once in a documentary featuring both SS and NKVD veterans and it was really....uhm...strange to have these friendly looking grampas tell over a cup of tea how they had shot and killed like that. The arresting and handling of deserting german troops usually was by the Feldgendarmerie, the military police, aka "chaindogs". But I wouldn't be surprised to hear about a bunch of SD villain troops shooting war-weary Wehrmacht soldiers they'ld encounter deserting. Besides, Streifendienst (patroling the rear to look for deserters) could also be be done by regular troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Originally posted by AcePylut: A common practice in the Red Army was to place NKVD batallions behind attacking Soviet troops with the express purpose of shooting any Soviet that fled from the battlefield. Myth ... sort of. It was "common" for whatever that means, to palce NKVD behind "prisoner" battalions and other "suspect" units. Over all, the common Red Army soldier had no problems fighting the Nazi invader that raped and pillaged, and waged a war of extermination against the slav, or what the Germans called "Untermenschen" (i.e., subhuman). So, yes, they did exist, but not in the context you, or Enemy at The Gates, portrayed. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Originally posted by Dr. Brian: Myth ... sort of. It was "common" for whatever that means, to palce NKVD behind "prisoner" battalions and other "suspect" units. Over all, the common Red Army soldier had no problems fighting the Nazi invader that raped and pillaged, and waged a war of extermination against the slav, or what the Germans called "Untermenschen" (i.e., subhuman). So, yes, they did exist, but not in the context you, or Enemy at The Gates, portrayed. Exactly, Dr.Brian! Some people in this forum are under the impression that by and large the average Soviet citizen was forced to fight! This is patently untrue. By winter of 1941, the Soviets knew what was in store for them should Nazi Germany defeat them. Certainly, the Stalin regime was at work, but this had very little to do with the level of commitment the average Soviet citizen and soldier was willing to go for their country. It's a terrible misfortune that in the case of the War of Russia the losers got to write the history books. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcePylut Posted March 21, 2001 Author Share Posted March 21, 2001 Why do I want to see this? If I'm making a human wave attack with a bunch of semi-armed conscripts, I want "morale boosters" sitting 200 yards behind the line of advance ready to "increase the will to fight" lest my attack fail due to insufficient fighting spirit. As far as I know, this was a lot more common practice in the Soviet Union than it was in Germany. I would like to see it modeled in CM2. Perhaps a batallion of troops is too many given the scope of CM, how about a few special "NKVD" units like a couple of machine guns, a few HQ units, and maybe few squads. These NKVD units would be able to target their own men. IF the eliminate a broken allied squad, all 'friendly' soldiers in sight of this get a morale and combat boost with the possibility of maybe going fanatic. Ahha!!! Perhaps a company of NKVD. Why did I shoot prisoners in CC3? It seemed (no coded or data or anything to back this up) that if I shot prisoners the enemy troops would be more prone to go fanatic and yell out their "Urrah" fanatic scream. I liked hearing that during the game, so I got into the habit of killing the prisoners. Plus, it was for the psychological effect on the person I was playing against (we'd get mad at each other for shooting troops that surrendered) ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Offwhite Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Instead of adding a unit whose historical presence and role on the majority of battlefields seems to be open to question, and which would add another dimension to the already tiresome "gaminess" debate, why not use the editor to increase the Soviets' fanaticism percentage? Seems like it would have the same effect, except for watching the battlefield executions. ------------------ Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap - Rudyard Kipling, "Tommy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts