Is it just me or are 81mm mortars (off-map) really good value?

[PacifistButLikeWarGames]

They seem to pack one hell of a punch, and have a good ammo load.

Any comments?

[Guest Mirage2k]

I've noticed that they tend to supress more than kill. Depends on what you use them for, I guess.

-Andrew

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[Mikhael]

Also, their ammo usage is pretty high. The first time I bought them I about wet myself in joy at their 200 ammo loads, but it turns out they use probably close to 70-80 of those points per turn :/

Which is cool, I guess, since that means their target is getting positively deluged with mortar rounds, but kinda evens things out in the end.

I do agree though, they're great suppression fire, loads of fun

[Lurker]

I find that 81mm mortars are an extremely good value. They pack a fairly nice punch, but more importantly for me, they respond quickly.

I find that the 81mm mortar is often the tool I use to fix mistakes in my deployments. I can ususally pin the enemy advancing into my under defended areas long enough to rearrange my reseverse.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

-Lurker

[Nathman]

81mm FO's are a great value IMO. To keep them from running through their ammo too quickly, I usually re-target them slightly over consecutive turns so there is about a 10-15 second delay before they start firing again.

[Guest Pillar]

The mortar is the primary AT weapon killer.

[KiwiJoe]

Another thread that shows me why I win all my games

81mm mortars are about the worst artillery you can buy. Their only use is for smoke screens, knocking out fixed guns (if you didn't buy any on-board mortars... which you should have), and slowing down advancing infantry. Germans should be looking at 105mm, 120mm mortars or 150mm. Don't be fooled by the high ammo load out of the 81mm mortars.

German 81mm: 19 blast x 150 rounds = 2850

German 120mm: 80 blast x 50 rounds = 3500

German 150mm:198 blast x 35 rounds = 6930

And if 1 of those 120mm or 150mm rounds tree bursts ANY WHERE near infantry they get ripped apart.

I suggest you buy on board mortars for anti AT and suppression work... they fire straight away and do a better job overall.

If your REALLY opposed to on-board mortars then 1 81mm spotter should be considered, but far too often all I see in my game is 2 or 3 81mm's. I just laugh when my infantry take 3-4 hits after hiding under a full 3-4 turn 81mm barrage. Then my 155mm guns open up and slaughter a whole platoon in 1 turn...

[Robeek]

I wouldn't be so harsh on 81mm mortars, Kiwi... they do have their uses.

First of all, I tend to use my 81's for suppression, when I need to put some heads into the dirt, without using up much more valuable artillery. At a low cost and a the staying power for a few turns, I'd definately put my money into at least one battery of 81mm's for this role.

Secondly, smoke screens CAN be used effectively (Read: NOT the way the AI uses them). And the cheapest/most effecient way of laying smoke is through the 81...

Finally, I tend to use my 81's as a sort of "probing artillery" to mix things up a bit. Get a few spotters up high early in the game, spot some potentially good hidings spots where the opponent would most likely place some of his troops, and drop a payload of 35-50 shells on that area (depending on which side I'm on, since Allies have more shells, and also depending on how obvious of a hiding position it is). This has the effect of 1) Giving your opponent the false illusion that you know his positions more than you really do and 2) Gives a false sense of direction; generally when you artillery strike a main line force sector, your opponent assumes it's a prepatory step toward an all-out attack, and so they will reinforce the area (and draw strength from somewhere else)...

See? Everything has it's uses... it's all how you play your cards, really...

[LuckyStrike]

Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Then my 155mm guns open up and slaughter a whole platoon in 1 turn...

Absolutely agreed. I only buy the big stuff now and find I win far more games that way. For some reason opponents are always surprised when 155 starts to land, but for the cost of an infantry platoon for 1 FO the damage potential from 25-30 rounds of this stuff is simply enormous - and its also effective versus armor.

[Robeek]

One thing to add though: I agree; people completely relying on 81mm artillery simply because they feel like they're getting a good deal are definately missing out, and after a few PBEM's versus a more balanced artillery force, they'll see the light.

[Nabla]

There is at least one situation I've faced in which they're almost useless. If you're attacking and the enemy has dug in there's not much you can do with them. You can't really hurt the infantry in foxholes. You can use these mortars to suppress enemy movement but when attacking that's secondary. Under these circumstances I would value something heavier.

[Goanna]

Nabla - I have to disagree with you in the exact situation you describe, but for a very different reason. In this situation (attacking infantry in foxholes), I find it best to get my infantry as close as possible first, then laying in the smoke just before I close with the enemy. If you are using explosive shells in this situation, you are basically wasting them, but getting my infantry 'up close and personal' with an opponent through the concealment that smoke provides make the 81 mm FO extremely valuable

In fact, you will find through searching, or speaking to a grog like bullethead, that this is the area where CM's model is really unrealistic in the advantage it gives the attacker when using an 81 mm FO in this manner. But hey, I'm just using what's in me kit*, I didn't write the subroutine.

KiwiJoe, if you win ALL your games, maybe it's time to move up to the big leagues and take the AI setting off 1. I suggest you come to the SS-Rauchmeister Berlichtingen school of off board small arty use against a skilled PBEM player.

* - © OGSF, Cesspool Thread, Feb. 2001.

[This message has been edited by Goanna (edited 02-13-2001).]

[KiwiJoe]

Goanna... what the hell are you talking about?

I'm about done proving myself, but if you think your skilled enough to give me a slight challenge I may be some what interested.

[Olle Petersson]

I've found the larger mortars (12cm/4.2") to be the optimum compromise between fast response and good firepower, so that's the way I usually go when I can only have one FO.

Otherwise the lighter mortars are good for smoke and suppression, while the heavier arty is better at killing enemies.

Cheers

Olle

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[Barleyman]

I really like German 120mm mortars on defense.

Fast response and nothing says Verboten! like a dozen big shells in a patch of tress enemy probe squads are advancing through

It pays to be extra careful with those. It's easy to dump stray shells on your own troops charging in to finish off the victims. And one shell is all it takes..

I've had bad experiences with 81mm knockin' out enemy AT defences. I dumped 81mm shells at one 6 pounder dug in in tall pines for 4 turns with little effect.

[Guest Pillar]

You don't have to *destroy* the enemy force to win.

On the defense, holding the attacker back or pinning him/rerouting his attack is as good as killing him.

It won't dig troops out of foxholes (though it will suppress them enough to by bypassed!!), but 81mm is sufficient for a defender.

[The_Capt]

I guess this clearly shows a seperation between CM and RL.

Mortars are to be feared, in the extreme in Rl.

1. They give no warning unless you are close enough to here the "snap" from the tube and my opinion that is waaaay too close to the MG team covering the mortar.

2. They have a much smaller impact area than Arty. So when you are caught by a mortar barrage you know it's personal.

3. Their rate of fire is obscene and should be banned by the Geneva Convention. One minute all is quiet, the next the ground is boiling and you are trying to be a gopher.

Arty is effective too but at least it gives you a little warning and it is an area weapon so you don't feel like you are being picked on.

My thoughts

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Mirage2k:

I've noticed that they tend to supress more than kill. Depends on what you use them for, I guess.

-Andrew

Smoke baby, smoke. That and they will knock out guns, mortar teams, AT teams, and other FOs if they land close. But they are my main supplier of smoke.

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Jeff Abbott

[Bruno Weiss]

81's are good for smoke, and lots of it. If you want to cover an entire advance, or withdrawal route, I find the 81's hard to beat. On the other hand, I like the 75mm offboard arty for kill and suppress value better. It tends to be far more accurate, and saturates less of an area with less random shells outside the target area. I can lay it down fairly close to friendly troops (within 70 meters), and not have to worry much about friendly fire.

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open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Jasper]

The bigger guns are too expensive (and too slow) to take chances with. And certainly too expensive to make smoke with.

Because they're so slow - you can't use them to respond to the unexpected (unless the unexpected happens r e a l - s l o w). You're almost forced to use them according to plan.

So I always *start* by buying off-map 81mm (or similar smallish size). I might work up to the bigger stuff, but only after I've got my 'little' mortars.

Personally I'd rather have many smaller fire missions than one big one. Faster responding, can make life miserable in more than one place, more flexible (mix smoke and HE if need be). So I'm allowed to make mistakes / take chances with it, and still have artillery left afterwards.

[This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 02-13-2001).]

[JediJobu]

Goona, KiwiJoe will give you a challenge. I tried repetively against him and failed where I was cleaning house with other players.... and I did mostly use 81mm mortars...They SUCK and he showed me the light...

Perhaps I am not as good as I thought but...the 81's still suck.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Pillar:

The mortar is the primary AT weapon killer.

Try it again in 1.12 - my persistent winging seems to have had an effect, and they appear to be much less effective - this may have been changed a long time ago, and I missed it, BTW. Damn, deprived myself of my favourite Commonwealth 3" AT mortar...

Tried 3" and German 81mm against lightly armoured vehicles and tanks (stationary), and no kills.

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Andreas

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[Jasper]

I guess you read what you want to, but I thought Pillar was saying that it's a good way to kill AT weapons (guns and the like).

[Guest Pillar]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Try it again in 1.12 - my persistent winging seems to have had an effect, and they appear to be much less effective - this may have been changed a long time ago, and I missed it, BTW. Damn, deprived myself of my favourite Commonwealth 3" AT mortar...

Tried 3" and German 81mm against lightly armoured vehicles and tanks (stationary), and no kills.

Hmm, you seem to be right about this new change. BUT, suppressing an AT gun on the attack is in my opinion sealing it's death anyway, since any attack should have infantry involved on the objective, or, if the gun is located covering an approach TO the objective, it will be rendered irrelevent once that objective is taken.

So in essence the 81mm is still a wonderful AT weapon nullifyer. If you want to kill guns at a distance that have significant fields of fire affecting the objective AND the approach (and this isn't a common situation unless you are in very open terrain), than the 120mm will do.

- Pillar

[Ales Dvorak]

I was 82mm mortar in YU army (1982 (made in USA 1969)). Great stuff!

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