Panzer Leader Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Okay, let's compile a list of nations who actually fought in the "War in the East". Obviously Germany and USSR. Finland and Hungary. What about Poland? After their defeat, did any join Germany or USSR? Were the Italians in Russia? How about Austria and Hungary? Any other countries I forgot to add? If you know of a specific army or force who fought, please list it here with whatever historical information you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thimoty Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Originally posted by Panzer Leader: Any other countries I forgot to add? If you know of a specific army or force who fought, please list it here with whatever historical information you have. Well, in the conquered countries there were 'foreign legions', who went to fight in the east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 I know that there were some Polish brigades in the Red Army, but i don't have any detailed info for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 You left out the Romanians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Other countries? Sure. Spain sent some guys with 'muchos huevos', the Spanish Blue Division (Azul?). Studs up near Leningrad. Rumania. Poorly led, organized and equipped. No chance versus the Red Army when the front was so stretched out in '43 and on. Mainly in the South (logically). Hungarians. They and the Rumanians had some friction between them. Ukrainian cossacks helped in some anti-partisan sweeps. Oh, but they'd be mounted, so we can'd include them. I don't have your original post in front of me, but these were the ones that leapt to mind first. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 (obviously I haven't learned the secret of editing a posted response.) I see you already included Hungary. I'd have to check to see if Bulgaria did anything beyond their borders. Some Poles did fight on the Red side. They were a political counter to the Polish resistance. I think they were used by the Soviets in a manner similar to that of how the Free French were set up by the U.S., i.e., they were completely Soviet equipped, trained and used almost as a Soviet unit. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 > Some Poles did fight on the Red side. Several divisions of them, not just "some poles". These were called Voysko Polskoye. Can add France (Neman-Oderskiy fighter regiment Normandia). Austria was considered part of Germany, iirc. Ie, people from there were drafted to serve in german units. Volunteers from many nations fought in SS (Norway, Holland, Denmark etc, etc). Should not forget Yugoslavia - lots of action there. Arguably, the nation that suffered most in WWII was neither jews, nor poles. It was serbs. Reg Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and some other countires that (afaik) did not send their army units to Russia, it can be said that these took part in fighting, anyway. On the way to Berlin Red Army visited those countries and, of course, there were local collaborators fighting among germans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Don't forget Italy. A few divisions took part in the eastern campaign, don't know numbers. And what about General Wlassovs russian troops who fought on the axis side? In the Waffen-SS more than 50000 men from Holland, 20000 from Belgium and 20000 from France served in the german army. 6000 came from Denmark, the same number from Norway. 1200 came from Luxembourg and Switzerland. Later in the course of the war more than 200000 men from Lithunia, Esthonia, the Ukraine and from the balcans served in the Waffen-SS. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! [This message has been edited by ParaBellum (edited 03-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rommel22 Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Slovakia sent some divisions into the cucasus to capture Maikop. Romania had a big presense on the eatern front. First was in the Crimea with Mansteins 11th Army. Later with the 6th army around Staligrand and also another army in the cacasus. The romanians embaresed the Germans in the cacasus. The German offensive there died out. So the Romainas tried and they got it going again, capturing some important port. Hungarians of course, they had an army protecting the flanks of the 6th army. The Italins had their 8th army fighting in the south. There were others like Spain with division AZUL. ------------------ Rommel22s Kampfgruppe site: http://rommel22diarys.homestead.com/MyPage1.html "I saw 5 Germans walking down the side of the road, so I followed them for a few yard to get closer. Then I shot them! Later that day I found out the war has been over for a few weeks." - someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Well, in terms of CM, modeling many of these sub-nationalities under German or Russian arms would not requires seperate OOBs, etc. The Blue Division was a standard Wehrmacht infantry division, albeit with very high fanaticism. The SS divisions, were, for the most part, equipped like a normal SS division. The same would be true for the Polish Peoples Army (equipped like Russian infantry). So no diffrent squad types are needed unless BTS really wants to invest serious resources in creating more sound files. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Check out the Dogs of War CM Players Community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 27, 2001 Author Share Posted March 27, 2001 Good point WWB. Well, let's shift this discussion to nationalities we feel SHOULD be modified into CM2. I think if the polish are going to play Allies in CM1, they have a spot in CM2. ((I REALLY wish CM2 would include the invasion of Poland, but it doesn't look like that will happen.)) I also think there is a strong case for Finland, Italian and Rumanian and maybe for Hungarian. These all seemd to have their own autonomous forces and so should be modelled. others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Assuming a vote on nationalities to include in CM2 meant anything... I'd vote for the following to be represented uniquely (even if their voice-files couldn't be completed) in addition to the obvious Russian & German units: Finns Romanians Hungarians Italians I want them in primarily for their different OOB/TOE. All the other mentioned nationalities would probably fit within the Russian or German OOB/TOEs. The Poles could probably be included since voice-files already exist for them. [This message has been edited by Schrullenhaft (edited 03-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Originally posted by Skipper: Arguably, the nation that suffered most in WWII was neither jews, nor poles. It was serbs. Okay skip… I'll bite on this blanket statement. How on earth did the Serbs suffer more than the Poles/Jews? What program of systematic elimination did the Germans implement to wipe out the Serbian people from the face of the earth? You just can't make that type of statement, and not back it up. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted March 27, 2001 Share Posted March 27, 2001 Originally posted by ParaBellum: Later in the course of the war more than 200000 men from Lithunia, Esthonia, the Ukraine and .... It is not called "the Ukraine." It is called Ukraine. We don't say "the Germany," "the Italy," or "the Holland." I'll gladly post a small article on the incorrect development and usage of "the Ukraine" if there is interest. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 Originally posted by Dr. Brian: It is not called "the Ukraine." It is called Ukraine. We don't say "the Germany," "the Italy," or "the Holland." I'll gladly post a small article on the incorrect development and usage of "the Ukraine" if there is interest. Hehe, thx... Everyday I learn something new. BTW, I wrote "the Ukraine", since in german (I am german) when referring to Ukraine it is always "the" Ukraine. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 Well, the only ones I can think of who were not mention would be the Croats (1 brigade or so) and the Slovaks (2 divisions). Also, I have heard that it was necessary to keep the Hungarian and Rumanian armies physically seperated. Apparently they would have rather been shooting at each other than the Russians. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Check out the Dogs of War CM Players Community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 Originally posted by Parabellum: Later in the course of the war more than 200000 men from Lithunia, Esthonia, the Ukraine and from the balcans served in the Waffen-SS. You forgot Latvia. Latvians where also drafted into Waffen SS in 1944 (also there was a "latvian" division in the Red Army). And they fought each other for some time. Just one tragedy of my country... [This message has been edited by ciks (edited 03-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 Originally posted by Panzer Leader: Okay, let's compile a list of nations who actually fought in the "War in the East". Obviously Germany and USSR. Finland and Hungary. What about Poland? Poland had over 200,000 soldiers fighting on Soviet side. Polish soldiers were fighting all the way to Berlin. They were the only soldiers (other then Soviet) to take Berlin. They were equiped by USRR, just like Polish units in the west were equiped by England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 Originally posted by ciks: You forgot Latvia. Latvians where also drafted into Waffen SS in 1944 (also there was a "latvian" division in the Red Army). And they fought each other for some time. Just one tragedy of my country... [This message has been edited by ciks (edited 03-28-2001).] Yes, forgot them. But I think their number is included in the 200000 from the other baltic states and UKRAINE (better now, Dr. Brian?). ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 > How on earth did the Serbs suffer more > than the Poles/Jews? They lost almost 1 mililon dead out of 4 or 5 million population. I don't remember off-hand how many divisions Wehrmacht had to keep in Yugoslavia, but it was many enough to make some difference in Russia. > What program of systematic elimination did > the Germans implement to wipe out the > Serbian people from the face of the earth? Same style extermination program as in Belorussia, Poland, Russia and Ukraine. Incidentally, all these were the places where there was a real large scale partisan movement. I don't think arguing who among these suffered more makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 Originally posted by ParaBellum: Hehe, thx... Everyday I learn something new. BTW, I wrote "the Ukraine", since in german (I am german) when referring to Ukraine it is always "the" Ukraine. I also disgaree with Dr Brian. Many many places are prefixed by 'the'. The Crimea is just one example. When going to the toilet, I wouldn't say, "I am gojng to bathroom." It would be "I am going to the bathroom," even though the full title of the room in question is simply Bathroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadayne Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 How about the white russians? Will there be russians fighting on the axis side? BTW, as far as serbs vs. croats systematic elimination -apparently the attrocities commited by the croats on the serb population were so bad that even the SS "advisors" were horrified. I could dig up the documentation if I was pressed, but I'm too busy at work right now. Save to say that, yes, the Serbs suffered pretty badly (1/4 of your entire population puts you damn near the top of the list) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin Cracauer Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 I really hope this threads does not degenerate into a political debate. As for the Romanians, they participated in the attack on the USSR mainly to get back some stripe of country the USSR had taken from them before, plus a security zone, up to the Bug river. Apparently Germany did not tell them how far they intended to go. I don't remember the exact source (I think it was FM Manstein), but could look it up if someome like to know and the thread wasn't locked up in the meantime As for the "the" Ukraine, in German language you have the title for mountains, rivers and island groups (but not islands) and for some reason sometimes such a title is prefixed to some (but few) landscapes, where a landscape may extend to a whole country. If there's interest I could ask a friend of mine who is a teacher for German language. So, when a German says "the" ukraine it doesn't mean anything special, both words together are just the normal term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 weren't there french nazis? "the sorrow and the pity" ------------------ russellmz, Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ. "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 Originally posted by Martin Cracauer: As for the "the" Ukraine, in German language you have the title for mountains, rivers and island groups (but not islands) and for some reason sometimes such a title is prefixed to some (but few) landscapes, where a landscape may extend to a whole country. If there's interest I could ask a friend of mine who is a teacher for German language. Ukraine is not a "lanscape" or river. It is a country. However, if you must, there is nothing wrong with saying "the Germany" either. I'll repost the article later for everyone. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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