L4Pilot Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Yes, yes, it's Normandy, not Nomandy. SNAFU! Nonetheless: At the risk of what little free time and sanity I have left, I present for your inspection and approval the following: I am offering a campaign game using CM and PanzerCampaigns:Normandy '44 from HPS. The idea is that participants will pick or be assigned a specific unit in the campaign (according to their preferences for side and type of unit) Most of the units in Normandy '44 are roughly company sized - just right for CM. Then players will "follow" that unit on a turn by turn basis (Normandy '44 has two hour turns) while the whole Normandy invasion rages around them. Each commander will receive a report each turn about what their unit saw, heard and experienced. Sort of like some of the other campaigns but with more emphasis on history and less on role-playing and communications. If their unit is ordered to attack, or is attacked, I will generate a CM scenario based on their units current strength and map location. Players will have a few days to play the scenario and then return the results to me. I will then use the editor in Normandy '44 to put the results back into that game. And on to the next turn. Normandy '44 has a pretty good map, down to the 1 km scale with terrain, vegetation, waterways and transportation network. I also have topo maps on order from Moon to be able to provide even more details. I'm not going to be fanatic about it, but I want the scenarios I provide to be a "good" representation of the area in which the battles are occurring. I foresee this game being less Role Playing and more a big scenario generator within an overall historical context. I'll use the Normandy '44 game to handle supply, operational movement, command and control, replacements and morale. I'll use the built-in AI to do most of the unit movements. Based on what I've seen of some of the campaign games, I worried about "Referee Overload." So I have been practicing with Normandy '44, running the AI for both sides, editing unit positions and strengths, and following selected units to see how often they engage in combat. One thing I discovered is that most units rarely engage in intense CM style combat (what Normandy '44 calls assaults). More prevalent are skirmishes, arty bombardments and air attacks, none of which require CM to resolve. So a report for a 2 hour turn might typically be "Your unit was bombarded briefly by mortar fire from the southwest and suffered 2 casualties. Scouts in that direction encountered enemy infantry and skirmishing caused four more casualties. Your HQ says to stay put and await further orders." Or some such. Practicing with Normandy '44 has shown that are only a few "assaults" per turn. And the chance of a player controlled unit being involved in one of those assaults is not great. So my guess is that I'll only have to produce a CM scenario once every turn or two and this should be within my capabilities. When a CM Battle is called for, I'll use the random map generator to create a map for each contested Normandy'44 hex using the appropriate criteria, (hilliness, forestation, habitation). Then I'll edit the map to include any details (roads, water, bridges, etc.) that I can discern from the Normandy'44 map or the topo maps. The CM maps won't be precise representations of the battle area, but will be very close in spirit and give, I hope, a strong feel for the area. I'll retain the maps on a hex by hex basis so if an area is fought over more than once, the same map will be used. There are several caveats I've got to provide. One thing I don't expect is for this to generate nice, evenly balanced CM battles. Far more than Quick Battles or pre-gen scenarios, these will NOT attempt to balance play. So most likely players will either vastly outnumber or be vastly outnumbered. Just like in real life. I also don't expect that players will be inundated with scenarios. As I said, my testing shows that very few units engage in the kind of combat requiring CM on any given turn. So it might be weeks (of real time), or even months, between actual CM combats. But players should receive a "Unit Report" once or twice a (real) week. What I do believe players will experience is a feeling of participating in an historic event, with hundreds of thousands of other (virtual) participants. They should feel some continuity and identification with their chosen unit And I hope they feel some understanding of and identification with the men of both sides who were there That's my goal. I think I can anticipate some problems. If players don't return their results for a game, I'll use the results that Normandy '44 generates (possibly with a little referee induced penalty ). So the game will go on, one way or another. If for some reason a combat includes units from human players on both sides - they'll need to arrange and resolve the combat within the time limit via TCP/IP - but I don't think that's going to be very common. If both player and non-player units are on one side, then the human will be "promoted" to "force commander" for that battle. I'd like to start with 6 US, 6 Commonwealth and 6 to 12 German commanders. Most of the units in Normandy '44 are roughly company sized. Just right for CM. Part of the problem, especially on the German side, is that many of the units that are initially engaged will be the lower quality "fixed" units that made up much of the "up front" forces. But there may be enough PJ, PnzGr and Panzer forces to keep people happy. I'm going to shoot for two Normandy '44 turns per week. I'll do emails and scenarios Monday and Friday. Responses will be due back the following Thursday and Sunday, respectively. Possible improvements in the future are (obviously) more participants, and players commanding more than a single unit (battalion and regiment sized commands) . I'll have to see how things go before incorporating these. If the game goes that long and interest stays up we might even explore the early release of the Panzer units at the Pas de Calais. I'm going to place people three ways: 1) Request for a specific unit. Some people, by family affiliation or special interest, may want a specific unit. "the Band of Brothers" PI company or the Green Howards or some specific Panzer unit, or whatever. 2) A general request for side or type of unit: Axis. Allied. Parachute. Panzer. Canadian. Whatever. I'll assign people to a unit type of their choice and try to make it one of the more interesting and involving units of that type, if I can. 3) Wait on a list for an interesting battle to come up. Since I'm not going to "CM" every battle that comes along this might take a while. I also think it will be more fun to follow (and influence) a unit from it's entry into the campaign. But some people will want this so I'll allow for it. This will probably be the way I introduce new people into the campaign when (and if) I decide I can comfortably add more people. I have set up a new email address for this venture: NormandyCampaign@aol.com With BTS's forbearance, I'd like to use this Chat board for two more messages: 1) "Les sanglots longs des violins de l'automne" when Moon tells me the maps have shipped. The original meaning was and still will be, an invasion is expected within the next two weeks, and; 2) "Blessent mon coeur d'une langueur monotone" when the maps arrive meaning the invasion is expected within the next 48 hours. So please respond here to this thread or to NormandyCampaign@aol.com if you are interested or have any questions. [This message has been edited by L4Pilot (edited 02-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 33%God Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Sounds interesting to me sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 This sound interesting, but I have a couple of questions/warnings: 1. The QB map generator never puts Bocage tiles on the map. I fear you will be spending a lot of time tweaking the maps for historical accuracy. 2. How will you handle cases where two or more player's units are on the same 1km hex? Who will get to control the battle if one is called for. It seems that cases like this will be the norm because one single company gaurding an entire Km of front line seems awefully weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I would be very much interested in this. Re: Pak40. Perhaps the players should take control of a battalion sized force instead of a company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Good lord, who has time to read these long posts? If Canadian units are an option, I would very much like to be able to participate. EDIT - ok, Canadians are an option. If this is to start in June, I'm stuck with Third Division - preference would be Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, but I'd be happy with any of the other infantry battalions. If you are starting in July or after, I would prefer Calgary Highlanders. [This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 L4Pilot, You have a wonderful idea, but I also must warn you, out of good intention for your sanity : It will be hard, slow work generating a map for every battle your players will be involved in, as is telling each commander what they see, maintaining the whole thing, making players abide by the rules, etc. I advise you to seek help from someone of like mind to yours to help you run the thing. Its going to be difficult by yourself, I assure you. Of course, if you have a lot of free time and are willing to work hard for the benefit of your players, I wish you the best of luck. I am running a small campaign myself between several members of the Grognards Club on a fantasy map drawn up by myself. With only 10 players overall, and 12 CM maps to fight over, Im still going slow and had to do lots of work. With a campaign the likes of which you hope to run, the number of players will be several times larger, you'll need to make maps continuously, and will be in a bit of a hassle throughout. Take my warning to mind. I wish you the best of luck, and hope you succeed! Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L4Pilot Posted February 2, 2001 Author Share Posted February 2, 2001 Good points, Pak40. One of the purposes of this thread is to allow the intersted group to help anticipate potential glitches in advance of starting the campaign. <<1. The QB map generator never puts Bocage tiles on the map. I fear you will be spending a lot of time tweaking the maps for historical accuracy.>> I fear so, too. But as I mentioned in the initial message, I'm not striving for exact placement of each feature. If the Normandy '44 map calls for bocage in a given hex (which it can) I will definitely include hedgerows as part of the map tweaking. The topo's will give some indication of this too. (See the GamesofWar site for examples) Additional terrain features I anticiapte adding are waterways and ponds, settlements, roads and railroads and prominent hills - enough to give a representitive "feel" to a specific hex. <<2. How will you handle cases where two or more player's units are on the same 1km hex? Who will get to control the battle if one is called for. It seems that cases like this will be the norm because one single company gaurding an entire Km of front line seems awefully weak.>> No intrinsic limit on force size per hex. The chances of having more than one player commanded unit in a given hex will be small because I am going to spread the commanders out among different battalions and regiments. And a player in a given hex will be given command of forces in that hex. So even though you nominally are a company commander, you will end up commanding all the forces in a given hex as "senior commander on scene." Tou know - "Captain - the Colonel's pinned down. You've got to take command!" or some such. Hope that clarifies. <If Canadian units are an option, I would very much like to be able to participate.> Canadian, British, and their airborne contingents, American, American Airborne, Heer, PJ and SS units are all available. Basically the same list as on the CM force list. Choose your poison! And yes the game will start in June 1944. Shall we say JUNE 6th ??? And thanks for the warning Commissar. Well taken. That's why I'm going to limit the number of participants to begin with, emphasize the gameing rather than the roleplaying and provide for "temporary non-participation" of players to minimize hold-ups in the flow. Mike "L4Pilot" [This message has been edited by L4Pilot (edited 02-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L4Pilot Posted February 2, 2001 Author Share Posted February 2, 2001 << EDIT - ok, Canadians are an option. If this is to start in June, I'm stuck with Third Division - preference would be Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, but I'd be happy with any of the other infantry battalions. >> Michael, That's the kind of request I'm set up to handle. Shall we say Coy. A? Not an easy assignment but you'll see PLENTY of action! You're penciled in, if that's ok. Just an example of how I'd like to do this. I'll contact most of you via email to determine preferences. I wont be doing "beach" scenarios for all the reasons BTS has stated. But up from the beaches is a definite! "L4Pilot" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by L4Pilot: << EDIT - ok, Canadians are an option. If this is to start in June, I'm stuck with Third Division - preference would be Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, but I'd be happy with any of the other infantry battalions. >> Michael, That's the kind of request I'm set up to handle. Shall we say Coy. A? Not an easy assignment but you'll see PLENTY of action! You're penciled in, if that's ok. Just an example of how I'd like to do this. I'll contact most of you via email to determine preferences. I wont be doing "beach" scenarios for all the reasons BTS has stated. But up from the beaches is a definite! "L4Pilot" A Company is perfect. I have a book written by the Company Sergeant Major of A company, Queen's Own. It will be interesting to compare "my experiences" with his. Write me in with ink, if you please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Sign me up as well. I said you might be troubled, but I dont refuse a good opportunity I'll take any forces available, really, no National preference. My e-mail: commissar81284@icqmail.com ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Sir, Ahh this sounds very interesting! Count in the Lord General. I never refuse a fight! My E-mail: mr_bill_jr_5@hotmail.com ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I would definatly like to participate. I will play as any unit, but perfer a British unit such as the 51st Highland Divsion or the 79th Armored. Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Steiner Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Hi L4Pilot et al This sounds a very interesting project indeed. I would like to considered as a participant. No real preference as to unit or type just give me anything going. Cheers Gary Barr sgtsteiner@sgtsteiner.worldonline.co.uk ------------------ Sgt Steiner Belfast NI UK [This message has been edited by Sgt Steiner (edited 02-02-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culex Pipiens Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 i wilo be interested darione@iol.it but i have to say that two times i have begin a campaign with other people and both died early because people says yes at the begin and then melt away so it is important to choose players that realy want to game!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 This is a great idea and I'm very interested in any British unit available - particularly (for family reasons) any of the elements of 79th Armoured which IIRC are scattered all over the map on June 6th. L4Pilot, regardless of the final outcome of the campaign, your work will be appreciated. Email: Gary@theboozer1.freeserve.co.uk ------------------ "We're not here to take it - We're here to give it" General Morshead's response to the popular newspaper headline "Tobruk Can Take It" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wie201 Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Good luck with this. I'd like to be part of it as well. Prefer Americans, but will take anything. Thanks! e-mail (you know me) is dhunt1@cox.rr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I am in. This is a clear chance to practice true Manoeuvre and see if it really works. Axis please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Smith Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I'd be interested, too. Either side. I will have to get back to you with my email address. I am suspicious, though. I have (and am playing)Normandy '44. 1) My guess is that you are likely to have very few battles. Suppose you have 20 players (10 per side). As you know, there really aren't that many 'assaults'. The odds that 10 companies out of the whole axis or allied army are actually involved in an assault in a given turn are pretty small-are you doing the whole Normandy battle (in which there are probably 1000's of companies per side) or a smaller scenario with a few divisions per side? 2) What are the victory conditions for a given battle? Capture a flag? Is there anything stopping me as a company commander from either fighting to the death and losing my whole company (when you didn't intend it) or quickly withdrawing to save myself (when you wanted to hold the hex)? 3) What about artillery/armor/engineers? When I play Normandy, the engineer bns and sometimes armored bns fight as one- you could have 45 tanks, or 500 engineers, or 40 scout vehicles, in a 1 km battlefield. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barticus Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Well, sounds mighty interesting to me, I'm in. barticus@home.com Preferably Axis, but I can fill in where-ever needed. Bart ------------------ "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azazyel Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Count me in L4Pilot. (remember me?) I think its your turn by the way. az Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetherat Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Sounds like a great idea if you can pull it off. Count me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Count me in as a UK or Germ player. Where can I get Normandy 44? ------------------ The only enemy I fear is nature. -Napoleon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I'd like to get in on that too. Either Canadian or any of the German batt. Cheers, Walter R. Strapps (wrs13@columbia.edu) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Oh, but one thing I'm a bit confused about. Doesn't it make sense that since the invading armies were 2:2:1 American:British:Canadian, doesn't it make sense to keep the same ratio or at least approximately? Like 5:5:2? Just my thoughts on it. OH, and will you plan on including the paratroop drops as well? Might be an added level of complication that you don't need, but something to consider I guess. Cheers, Walter R. Strapps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L4Pilot Posted February 2, 2001 Author Share Posted February 2, 2001 Great! Looks like Commonwealth is filling up fastest! I'm gratified by the response and will contact each of you via email, as well as those of you who contacted me at NormandyCampaign@aol.com. I'll also address the concerns above in an edited version of this message ASAP. Thanks for the interest. L4Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts