What do you consider "gamey"

[EricM]

Don't recall ever seeing a pole of what people consider "gamey" tactics in CMBO. Just curious, what do you consider as a gamey tactic or use of something (vehicle, tank, infantry, etc.

My personel thought of a gamey tactic is to use a crew from a tank or disable mortar as scouts. Another is to send a poor smuck of a flamethrower out in the open to see who shoots at him and from where.

Eric

[gredeker]

Here's the list of potentially gamey tactics put forth by TreeBurst for the Rumblings of War tourney:

POTENTIALLY Gamey Tactics

1) Setting fire to "squares" or buildings unoccupied by enemy troops, ESPECIALLY to deny a VL or covered access to one.

2) Advancing large formations along the map edge.

3) Scouting with AT teams, crews of knocked out vehicles or guns, MG teams, and anybody who is "low" on ammo.

4) Recon with light (cheap) vehicles well into enemy territory.

5) Exposing AT teams SOLEY for the purpose of drawing enemy fire.

6) Ordering vehicle and gun crews to participate in an attack or hunt down enemy teams or spotters.

7) Rushing infantry straight at a known enemy position (especially through cover) with no supporting/suppressive fire.

[Gen-x87H]

I dont consider anything Gamey. I consider the term Gamey reserved for people who got thier ass beat and cant fathom the idea that somebody else used a tactic they could not stop.

I have seen alot and from each butt whooping I take it is a learning experience.

Gen

[Michael Emrys]

Anything done by my opponent.

Michael

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

I dont consider anything Gamey. I consider the term Gamey reserved for people who got thier ass beat and cant fathom the idea that somebody else used a tactic they could not stop.

I have seen alot and from each butt whooping I take it is a learning experience.

Gen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Essentially, you are right and I respect you for saying this. Far too much I hear all these stupid rules one has to follow. The real strategist will find a way around the obstacles his enemy places in front of him. When faced with something that seems unfair, he will figure out a way to defeat his enemy's plan.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redeker:

Here's the list of potentially gamey tactics put forth by TreeBurst for the Rumblings of War tourney:

POTENTIALLY Gamey Tactics

1) Setting fire to "squares" or buildings unoccupied by enemy troops, ESPECIALLY to deny a VL or covered access to one.

2) Advancing large formations along the map edge.

3) Scouting with AT teams, crews of knocked out vehicles or guns, MG teams, and anybody who is "low" on ammo.

4) Recon with light (cheap) vehicles well into enemy territory.

5) Exposing AT teams SOLEY for the purpose of drawing enemy fire.

6) Ordering vehicle and gun crews to participate in an attack or hunt down enemy teams or spotters.

7) Rushing infantry straight at a known enemy position (especially through cover) with no supporting/suppressive fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2,4,5, and 6 are ridiculous--just ridiculous.

Let's begin with #2. How can advancing large amounts of infantry along the map's edge be gamey? Is the edge of the map not part of the playing board? And how much is a large amount? These are such open-ended rules which are interpreted differently by each person. But this point is moot with me because I consider every point on the map a realistic and viable option for the enemy to move to.

#4--Recon will go as far as you let them, in this game and in real life. The more intelligence they can gather, the more they will take. If you don't want a jeep or scout car going into your flanks, don't leave large gaps in your line. If you do, you run the risk of letting someone through.

#5--Those AT teams cost just as much as an infantry squad. If you exposed your infantry squad to the enemy they'd be fired upon, so why is it any worse with an AT squad?

#6--What's wrong with hunting down an enemy spotter with gun or vehicle crews? I once subscribed to the belief that you shouldn't use crews for anything but laying low in the flanks but hell, you lose points when those guys are killed so why is it so bad to send them up to spot? Nobody knows the exact points you lose for these teams so why has it been established that this is gamey? You could be losing a good amount of points for getting your 4 man vehicle crew killed or worse, held as prisoner. I don't send these guys into my enemy's flanks for that very reason. I don't want to lose points when they are killed seconds after being seen.

I played one guy who was appalled at me when my truck got bogged down in my own territory and I ordered the bailed crew to go to the nearest house (also in my territory) and do some spotting. I guess he thought I should've just sent them home...

[mikeadams]

Well, first of all CM *is* a game, so one can argue that anything the game engine allows is acceptable. I believe the arguments arise when extrapolating game actions to actual combat. There is no doubt that a commanding officer who routinely ordered mortar crews out into the open in order to draw fire, would not be in command for long. Exactly where one should draw the line in terms of realistic behavior is always going to be a judgement call. In the long run your best bet is to find opponents who have a philosophy similar to your own. That way you will spend less time complaining that you lost because he overran your artillery with weaponless Volkssturm and more on the *real* reason you lost; an unbelievable string of bad luck.

[Nick Panzer]

Describing a tactic in a game as "gamey"? Isn't that a misnomer?

There is one thing, well actually a couple things that one can use against the AI that could be considered "unethical tactics". 1) To throw a squad out in front of armor 'cause armor almost always shoots at opposing infantry before opposing amor. 2) Sticking some lost chap out in the middle of a field so that the AI arty will waste all of it's ordnance trying to kill just one soldier.

[REVS]

Deary me, the idea of "gamey" tactics in a game tells a lot about a loser, doesn't it? I'm afraid that this really is a game, and that anything that happens here is gamey. Anything goes, as long as you win. it's a philosophy that you ought to take on board. And when it comes down to the mentality of bare knuckle fighters, I'm sure they'd agree with this sentiment. So why not take on the challenge of "anything goes, so long as you win" and you'll be right there in the same mental set as your old grandpappy. Just remember, youth and enthusiasm is no match for old age and treachery." Whatever it takes, just do it." Get it?

[Dr. Brian]

Here we go again....

There is NO such thing as "gamey" tactics.

Anything you do to win the game is valid. Winning is the ultimate objective.

[aka_tom_w]

Gamey is a problem for me when it comes to Cherry picking unit selection.

I have no problem with most tactics other people think are "gamey"

BUT I have a huge problem with cheesy cherry picking unit selection in user buy QB's that include things like the German Sdk 37 MM AA HT Truck which is known to be hard to Knock out.

I have the most problem with gamey unit selection, after that the tactics in the game all take care of themselves and I have no real problem with any aledged "gamey" tactics.

-tom w

[Leeo]

I find discussion of what is "gamey" gamey.

[MoatnGator]

Boy, you guys crack me up.

I have problems with Gamey as well. First of all don't cry. Infantry rushes are the norm, especially through cover. NO wait, I think I will let the machine gun crew blast me as long as he can. Really. You ever hear of the term "over running a position?" That is when a position that is superior in fire power and placement is taken by surprise and sometimes sheer numbers.

No using tank crews... well boys stay under that bush for the rest of the firefight. Me an my other men will attempt this on our own. I am sorry, in real war there are more kills with knifes, pistols and entrenching tools (shovels) then many other weapons.

No bounding.... Upon contact the first element lays fire while the trail element bounds way off to one side. They literally break contact, only to rejoin elsewhere with an element of suprise on a flank

I agree about sending out sacrificial lambs but the rest has to go.

[Joe Shaw]

The following tactics have been determined to be officially "gamey" by the CessPool:

xii) Setting fire to anything. Really. Arson is as arson does.

ooooooHH) Using SMGs ... any number of them at any time is just wrong ... you know who you are.

() Advancing troops of any size along the map edge. "Map Edge" in this case refers to anything between the exact middle of the map and the actual edge of the map ... on either side.

(zipadedodah) Buying ahistorical force mixes. Defined as buying anything that was invented after 1880 when you're playing me.

c) Scouting with AT teams, Snipers, Vehicles, crews of knocked out vehicles or guns, Infantry Squads, MG teams, and anybody ... scouting is just gamey, period.

14.67) Recon with anything well into enemy territory ... or well into your own territory ... see above.

2 ... NO 3, I meant 3) Using Crews for anyting. You should immediately shoot your own crews to remove the possibility of being called gamey.

P^) Exposing AT teams for the purpose of firing at enemy vehicles. This isn't sporting, rather like shooting sitting ducks donchaknow. If God had intended for armor to be taken out by infantry would he have created Tank Destroyers? Well? WOULD HE?

666) Ordering vehicle and guns to attack enemy teams or spotters. These poor guys are below strength to begin with ... pick on someone your own size.

7/4/2001) Rushing infantry straight at MY position .. at any time.

And there you have it, straight from the CessPool ... well at least that's what everybody CLAIMS happens.

Joe

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Joe Shaw ]

[Neutral Party]

I'm afraid you just have to live with all these gamey things. Unit selection people can agree about (if they want to) prior to starting but the rest may or may not happen and there's bugger all you can do about it. The more I play this game the less likely I am to do some of these gamey things simply because I don't get much fun out it. Oh yeah and I don't care about winning. It's just that if I lose I cry and throw my monitor out the window but everyone does that - right? The only way to get rid of the suicide-type gaminess would be if the game consisted of a long succession of battles where forces carry forwards. Then I'm sure folks would stop. But the game's not like that so they won't.

[elalamein]

Not guarding POW's now that is gamey.

[Maximus]

In my not so humble opinion, the only thing that can be gamey in a game is something that takes advantage of a loop-hole or shortcoming in the game's engine or coding.

Any tactic or order is not gamey. Using an error in the game's engine as an advantage is. Simple as that.

Honestly I think the victory point system is gamey. Because in discussions in the past, people always talk about the gamey Victory Flag rush as the end of the game. The question is, in real life, I don't ever recall seeing a Victory Flag on top of Point du Hoc. I don't ever recall hearing a Sherman crew on the History Channel saying that they took out a Panther and scored 150 points in doing so.

That's why I always said that if you play a game just to play for points by taking and holding Victory Flags, then you're missing the whole point, no pun intended, on playing a battle. The real objective should be to destroy the enemy. No more, no less. Because if you destroy the enemy, all the victory flags are your's anyway.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Maximus ]

[jwxspoon]

I love these gamey threads!

I think we each have our own definition of "gamey". The key is to set the ground rules BEFORE you play your opponent. Some people are ticked off by the flak wagons; some don't like the wasp flamethrowers, some don't like fighting 19 HMC's in a QB, some don't like untowed guns in an ME...just clear it with your opponent and you're fine.

Each time I play someone new I ask him what his requested restrictions are, and I may or may not have some of my own. If the restrictions are too stringent, then I don't play that opponent. If at the end of the game he is a sore loser or an ass___, I just don't play him again. There is no shortage of potential opponents for this game.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: jwxspoon ]

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jwxspoon:

I love these gamey threads!

I think we each have our own definition of "gamey". The key is to set the ground rules BEFORE you play your opponent. Some people are ticked off by the flak wagons; some don't like the wasp flamethrowers.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: jwxspoon ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just killed a wasp flamethrower in a pbem, so they are not gamey. if the wasp had eluded my attack and flamed my troops, it would be very very gamey indeed. see how simple this is?

[killa in manilla]

anything that would use a person as bait or using them to see where shots come from, or using very light very fast vehicles and going up and down the map, just to find enemy positions, they would never use armor or trucks as scouts, expecially as blind scouts

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What do you consider "gamey"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Venison.

[gunnergoz]

I would consider something gamey that lies outside the parameters of reasonable conduct set between the opontents.

Heaven forbid my opponent do anything which might surprise me! Real oppontents don't do that!

Actually, the better two oppontents know one another, the less likely I suspect they'll be to accuse one another of gameyness.

It comes down to what one considers fair, I think, seasoned perhaps in many people's minds as to what is realistic (i.e. historical.)

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elalamein:

Not guarding POW's now that is gamey.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that's just stupid. I'll laugh at the person who doesn't guard them, and then complains that they ran away.

[Bruno Weiss]

I think everything is gamey. Particularly discussing something over and over for the umtenthbillion time. Life is like that you know. Just plain gamey. You never know what gamey thing will happen next. One comes into this world pretty gamey, all alone, cold, blurry eyed, and with some big Dr. Snort brutally assulting ones hindparts, and one leaves the world pretty gamey. Not only dead, but indebt for a funeral where you don't even get to sample the after service food. Not only that, but then you find out the grimreaper made an administrative error and another guy with the same name as you but spelled different was the one who's number was up.

Gamey I tell you, gamey!

Oh, almost forgot. HI MOM!

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ]

[lcm1947]

If you have to ask then it's gamey. I know that this is not true in all cases but it's how I try to keep from being gamey against the AI. Althought it has never once complained.