Hull down - is it worth it?

Battlefront.com · November 16, 2001

What Fangorn said is correct. CM takes the vehicles "tilt" into consideration when calculating the actual armor slope. What it doesn't do is top hits (which would be rare anyway) but we've corrected that oversight for CM: Barbarossa to Berlin.

Charles

Battlefront.com · November 16, 2001

What Fangorn said is correct. CM takes the vehicles "tilt" into consideration when calculating the actual armor slope. What it doesn't do is top hits (which would be rare anyway) but we've corrected that oversight for CM: Barbarossa to Berlin.

Charles

Head Mahone · November 16, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

What Fangorn said is correct. CM takes the vehicles "tilt" into consideration when calculating the actual armor slope. What it doesn't do is top hits (which would be rare anyway) but we've corrected that oversight for CM: Barbarossa to Berlin.

Charles<hr></blockquote>

Charles,

I remember seeing a “Top Hit” when a 150mm shell fell and destroyed a Panther. The reason it stuck in my mind is because of the rarity of such an event. I KNOW I saw this! Could you double check just to make sure I'm not going crazy?...

Thanks,

Head

Head Mahone · November 16, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

What Fangorn said is correct. CM takes the vehicles "tilt" into consideration when calculating the actual armor slope. What it doesn't do is top hits (which would be rare anyway) but we've corrected that oversight for CM: Barbarossa to Berlin.

Charles<hr></blockquote>

Charles,

I remember seeing a “Top Hit” when a 150mm shell fell and destroyed a Panther. The reason it stuck in my mind is because of the rarity of such an event. I KNOW I saw this! Could you double check just to make sure I'm not going crazy?...

Thanks,

Head

Redwolf · November 16, 2001

Only artillery and mortars can score top hits (and probably *only* top hits besides their HE blast effect when falling besides a vehicle).

Redwolf · November 16, 2001

Only artillery and mortars can score top hits (and probably *only* top hits besides their HE blast effect when falling besides a vehicle).

Sailor Malan · November 16, 2001

A couple of things you have not considered: Gun (or really gunner!) accuracy in azithmuth (left-right) is effectively MUCH better than range (which translates as up-down when considering a sensibly vertical target). So the chance of hitting the turret on a tank is nearer to the ratios of heights on the centre line not areas - now look at the KT again!). In addition, gunnery is not random, the gunner is AIMING - probably at the centre of the visible bit of the tank, or possibly the base of the turret (ignoring tanks where he knows he needs to get a track, or a shot trap). This will tend to bias the results. I don't know if CM models either of these factors, but do remember them when considering what is real life!

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Sailor Malan ]

Sailor Malan · November 16, 2001

A couple of things you have not considered: Gun (or really gunner!) accuracy in azithmuth (left-right) is effectively MUCH better than range (which translates as up-down when considering a sensibly vertical target). So the chance of hitting the turret on a tank is nearer to the ratios of heights on the centre line not areas - now look at the KT again!). In addition, gunnery is not random, the gunner is AIMING - probably at the centre of the visible bit of the tank, or possibly the base of the turret (ignoring tanks where he knows he needs to get a track, or a shot trap). This will tend to bias the results. I don't know if CM models either of these factors, but do remember them when considering what is real life!

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Sailor Malan ]

Fangorn · November 16, 2001

And there was much rejoice!

Charles,

Could you please take a look at the 3 emails per turn thread? It would be great if you could say if it's possible or not possible so we can stop bumping it

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=021986

Head,

What is not calculated in CMBO are top hits by direct gun fire. Mortars and artillary can hit tank's top. A rare event, indeed, unless you have an AT team in the secound stage of a building, which happens sometime.

Fangorn · November 16, 2001

And there was much rejoice!

Charles,

Could you please take a look at the 3 emails per turn thread? It would be great if you could say if it's possible or not possible so we can stop bumping it

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=021986

Head,

What is not calculated in CMBO are top hits by direct gun fire. Mortars and artillary can hit tank's top. A rare event, indeed, unless you have an AT team in the secound stage of a building, which happens sometime.

Jarmo · November 17, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I remember seeing a “Top Hit” when a 150mm shell fell and destroyed a Panther. I KNOW I saw this! <hr></blockquote>

It is indeed possible to hit top armor with artillery or mortar fire. Just not possible with direct ftire.

I take artillery/mortar fire is always assumed to fall straight down without an angle? Not that it really matters with HE shells anyway..

Jarmo · November 17, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I remember seeing a “Top Hit” when a 150mm shell fell and destroyed a Panther. I KNOW I saw this! <hr></blockquote>

It is indeed possible to hit top armor with artillery or mortar fire. Just not possible with direct ftire.

I take artillery/mortar fire is always assumed to fall straight down without an angle? Not that it really matters with HE shells anyway..

l3w53r · November 24, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>But I've got one small question: how do you manage to ensure your tanks are hull-down? <hr></blockquote>

The "hunt" command usually does this for me.

l3w53r · November 24, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>But I've got one small question: how do you manage to ensure your tanks are hull-down? <hr></blockquote>

The "hunt" command usually does this for me.

Dschugaschwili · November 26, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by redwolf:

Only artillery and mortars can score top hits (and probably *only* top hits besides their HE blast effect when falling besides a vehicle).<hr></blockquote>

Airplanes can score top hits too. I once had a PzIV destroyed by fire from the plane's MGs/cannons. It was labeled as a top penetration.

Dschugaschwili

Dschugaschwili · November 26, 2001

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by redwolf:

Only artillery and mortars can score top hits (and probably *only* top hits besides their HE blast effect when falling besides a vehicle).<hr></blockquote>

Airplanes can score top hits too. I once had a PzIV destroyed by fire from the plane's MGs/cannons. It was labeled as a top penetration.

Dschugaschwili

not another gamer · November 26, 2001

About effective armor slope in hulldown / reverse slope

I can't quote BTS saying so but I think I remember reading it long ago and it really seems to get me in my games.

The velocity and hence trajectory of shell is taken into account when calculating angle of hit.

So, those low-velocity (relativly) Shermans get "plunging fire" on my shiny Hetzers and JgIV's (greatly) reducing their effective armor slope. Nailing them when they are all snug and HD on a reverse slope. Makes me very sad.

not another gamer · November 26, 2001

About effective armor slope in hulldown / reverse slope

I can't quote BTS saying so but I think I remember reading it long ago and it really seems to get me in my games.

The velocity and hence trajectory of shell is taken into account when calculating angle of hit.

So, those low-velocity (relativly) Shermans get "plunging fire" on my shiny Hetzers and JgIV's (greatly) reducing their effective armor slope. Nailing them when they are all snug and HD on a reverse slope. Makes me very sad.

rexford · November 26, 2001

The range at which a target is hulldown makes a world of difference. If a Tiger is hulldown at 5 yards you hit it every time which is the same percentage against the full tank target, if a Tiger is hulldown at 2000m you hit it alot less on a percentage basis than the entire tank target.

The vertical and lateral spread of shot attempts widens at an exponential rate as the range increases. But the rounds are spread around the aim point with a bell-shaped distribution curve.

Say the target is a 9' high target and the turret is 4' high. Assume the shot probability puts 85% of the attempts within 1m of the target center of mass at 500m, and 15% at 1200m (assume all shots are within the width dimension of hull and turret for ease of calculation).

At 500m, the hit probability against hulldown turret alone is 61%, hit probability against entire tank is 96%.

At 1200m, hulldown turret hit percentage is 9%, entire tank target is 21%.

At 500m, hit chance against hulldown turret is 64% of entire tank, at 1200m the ratio drops to 43%.

If a gun puts 50% of shots within 1m of aim point at 500m, which is about what CMBO assumes for many weapons and ammo, chance of hitting 4' high turret is 31%, probability of hitting entire 9' high target is 66%.

As the hit percentage drops, the chance of hitting the hulldown turret compared to the entire target reduces to the ratio of the areas. As the hit percentage climbs, the two percentages close in on one another.

Now, if CMBO assumes that a high percentage of the misses occur because rounds fly wide of the target, which is reasonable, then the 500m hit percentage of vertical errors would be around 85% or so.

Based on our calculations, at 500m the difference between hulldown and fully exposed should be fairly large. At 100m there should be almost no difference cause the trajectory spread of shots just don't vary much from gun to target.

rexford · November 26, 2001