Fun Fact: Patton won the battle of Kursk?

[Jasper]

From:

BATTLEFIELD AIR INTERDICTION BY THE LUFTWAFFE AT THE BATTLE OF KURSK-1943

This is what the battle was like:

"The tanks were moving across the steppe in small packs, under cover of patches of woodland and hedges. The bursts of gunfire merged into one continuous, mighty roar. The Soviet tanks thrust into the German advanced formations at full speed and penetrated the German tank screen. The T-34's were knocking out Tigers at extremely close range... The tanks of both sides were in closest possible contact ... At such range there was no protection in armor and the length of the gun barrels was no longer decisive. Frequently, when a tank was hit, its ammunition and fuel blew up, and torn-off turrets were flung through the air over dozens of yards. At the same time over the battlefield furious aerial combats developed. Soviet as well as German airmen tried to help their ground forces to win the battle. The bombers, ground-support aircraft, and fighters seemed to be permanently suspended in the sky over Prokhorovka. One aerial combat followed another. Soon the whole sky 2@as shrouded by the thick smoke of the burning wrecks..."

Ugly. And How did Patton win it for the Soviets? Read on.

Meanwhile, Hitler met with the two commanders of Army Group Center and Army Group South and informed them that the Allies had landed on Sicily on 10 July-and that he was convinced there was, therefore, a danger of losing Central Europe. When Hitler also told them he was considering calling off the Battle of Kursk, von Manstein (Amy Group South) was shocked. Von Kluge, commander of Army Group Center, agreed since he was already in the process of moving the Ninth Army north to support the Second Panzer Army around Orel. Army Group South was allowed to continue its offensive. How- ever, on 17 July Hitler effectively ended the Battle of Kursk and the last great German offensive of World War II by ordering the SS Panzer 27 Corps to Italy.

[109 Gustav]

Well, I would argue that the Germans were losing it anyway, due to the excellent Russian defensive strategy. Read Citadel: The Battle of Kursk (don't remember the author), for an excellent account of this battle.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Mace]

It wasn't Patton per se, but the Allied (read A.l.l.i.e.d) invasion of Sicily that Hitler was concerned about.

If I remember correctly, FM(?) Alexander was in charge, with both Patton and Montgomery subserviant.

I must also agree with 109Gustav, the Germans wouldn't have had the mass to continue the offensive as they were effectively bled dry over the first few days in piercing the layered defences, and the soviet counter-offensive to both the North and South of the Kursk salient would have (and did) force the Germans on to the defensive.

Mace

[Private Pike]

Actually Von Mellenthin (Panzer battles, 1956)seems to agree that the invasion of Sicily by the Allied 15th Army Group under Alexander caused Hilter to halt Citadel

At the time 15th AG was made up of US 7th Army (Patton)which consisted of US II corp (Bradley)

and the British 8th Army (Monty) consisting of Br XXX corp (Leese) & Br XIII corp(Dempsey)

"On 13 3uly, Field Marhals von Manstein and Kiuge were summoned to East Prussia, and Hitler informed them that Citadel must be called off immediately as the Allies had landed in Sicily; troops must be transferred from the Eastern Front to deal with the invasion. Manstein had not committed all his forces and was in favor of continuing the offensive as a battle of attrition; by smashing up Russian armored reserves In the Kursk salient we might forestall major offensives in other sectors. This situation should have been foreseen before Citadel was launched; we were now in the position of a man who has seized a wolf by the ears and dare not let him go. However, Hitler declared that the attack must stop forthwith."

Von Mellenthin (Panzer battles, 1956)

But by the 13th July it was already fairly accademic as on the 11th July the battle of Prokhorovka had finished the German chances of advancing much further and on the 12th July the Russians themselves had launched a massive counter-attack

[This message has been edited by Private Pike (edited 01-10-2001).]

[tss]

Private Pike wrote:

Actually Von Mellenthin (Panzer battles, 1956)seems to agree that the invasion of Sicily by the Allied 15th Army Group under Alexander caused Hilter to halt Citadel

Well, in that case it should be said that the Allied invansion saved whatever was left of the attacking forces. Had the attack continued, it would probably have ended in another encirclement like Stalingrad.

The Soviets had simply too deep defence and too much reserves in the area. The German plan was doomed from the start.

- Tommi

[Wesreidau]

I would say Enigma won the battle of Kursk, the Russians knew they were coming and thats why they had time to deploy 7 defensive belts for the Germans to walk straight into. Once the attack was stalled, in came the counter-attacks and voila, the cream of the Wehrmacht`s armour formations was destroyed.

Just my 2p

[Doug Beman]

I've always read that the Soviets didn't much listen to Western intelligence. They knew about Citadel because the Germans started the build-up in like April, and kept postponing it and pushing back to get more Panthers and Elephants. It's really tough to hide that kind of buildup from an enemy who (as the Soviets did) was pretty much in control of the skies. If the Luftwaffe had had enough ooomph to run patrol flights over S England in May 1944, they might have done more against the Normandy invasion.

Also, I believe that the Allied invasion was the reason/excuse Hitler used to call off Citadel. Everybody knew the attack was failing, and the carefully massed, equipped, and supplied force assembled for it was being demolished for no gain. However, Hitler's psyche would not allow him to show the bankruptcy of the plan by stopping it without an external factor to blame.

DjB

[The Commissar]

Jasper,

By your mentality, it is also true to state that the USSR made Patton (and generally the invasion of Europe by the Allies) succeed. I wonder how they would have fared if there were 128 more German divisions in Europe?

Point is, the Allies helped each other, and were also helped by the fact that Hitler didn't know what he was doing but was too stubborn to admit it.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 01-10-2001).]

[David Aitken]

Jasper wrote:

> And How did Patton win it for the Soviets? Read on.

What, who are the Soviets? Was the Second World War not Germany and Japan versus the USA? Geez, next you'll be telling me that Hitler didn't die when Patton personally shot him...

Doug Beman wrote:

> If the Luftwaffe had had enough ooomph to run patrol flights over S England in May 1944, they might have done more against the Normandy invasion.

They did send planes over, but it would have told them little they didn't already know. The south of England was clogged with soldiers and military equipment of every description, but so what? The Germans knew the invasion was coming, but they didn't know where, and simply looking at the preparations wouldn't tell them that. Have you never heard about the fake shipping moored opposite Calais, and the rumours spread that Patton was in charge? That's part of the reason Hitler believed the Normandy invasion was only a feint.

[rexford]

Tiger frontal armor was proof against T34 rounds, but Tigers unable to obtain sufficient stand-off distance to present frontal armor and gain critical advantage.

[Bastables]

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cave/1761/kursk.html

[The Commissar]

Bastables,

Excellent article, and one I have seen before a while ago on this board.

Still, it proves that the biggest fault behind Kursk from the German perspective was the Fuhrer, and certaintly not the already over-rated "Ol' Blood and Guts" Patton.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wesreidau:

I would say Enigma won the battle of Kursk...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have yet to see anything to suggest that the Soviets had access to Ultra (the decrypts of Enigma) or even knew of its existence. If you have any information on this subject, I would dearly love to hear of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...the Russians knew they were coming and thats why they had time to deploy 7 defensive belts for the Germans to walk straight into.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The usual explanation given is that the Soviets had a human source in OKW that was sending them the plans as they developed. That source has never been identified though, so far as I am aware.

Michael

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

They did send planes over, but it would have told them little they didn't already know. The south of England was clogged with soldiers and military equipment of every description, but so what? The Germans knew the invasion was coming, but they didn't know where, and simply looking at the preparations wouldn't tell them that. Have you never heard about the fake shipping moored opposite Calais, and the rumours spread that Patton was in charge? That's part of the reason Hitler believed the Normandy invasion was only a feint.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The way I've heard it, the RAF (which was tasked with the protection of the British Isles) allowed German photoreccon planes to gain access to southeast and eastern England where the fake dispostions were (inflatable rubber tanks, etc.), but not over the southern and southwestern parts of the country where most of the real stuff. This combined with the planted reports of tame spies that "identified" units moving towards embarkation ports on the eastern part of the country all fed into the preëxisting notion of the Germans that Calais was the true target of the invasion. Had the Germans been permitted to see the true build up, it might in fact have given the game away.

Michael

[LimShady]

The intelligence source was codenamed "Lucy" right?

LimShady

[Guest Michael emrys]

Actually, Patton did in fact win the battle of Kursk for the Soviets. The previously unrevealed truth is that the whole "slapping" incident was staged to provide a pretext for his being absent from battle for an extended period. During that time, he was seconded to the Red Army where he planned their entire successful strategy for the rest of the war. Naturally, there had to be a stand-in double for him while he was away. This was accomplished by no lesser light than Buster Keaton. Unfortunately, the press did not appreciate some of his jokes, which almost queered the pitch. Patton was thus recalled in time to command 3rd. Army in its romp across France, which meant that he had to miss the destruction of Army Group Center, which would have been the crowning achievement of his career.

The world will little know, nor long remember...

Michael

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Bastables,

Excellent article, and one I have seen before a while ago on this board.

Still, it proves that the biggest fault behind Kursk from the German perspective was the Fuhrer, and certaintly not the already over-rated "Ol' Blood and Guts" Patton.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes this board is where I found it, but I can't remember who posted it here 1st, so I didn't guess and get myself in hot water.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimShady:

The intelligence source was codenamed "Lucy" right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That rings a bell, but on this particular matter I wouldn't bet the farm on my recollection. I may dig out my copy of Bodyguard of Lies and see what it has to say on the subject.

Michael

[Sgt. Steiner]

The intelligence source was indeed "Lucy". Although many now believe that Lucy was a front for Ultra decrypts, in order to pass the Soviets the information without letting them know that the Allies had cracked the Enigma codes..

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Vor der Kaserne, vor dem grossen Tor, stand eine Laterne und steht sie nach davor.

So wollen wir uns wiedersehn, bei der Laterne woll'n wir stehn,

wie einst Lili-Marleen,

wie einst Lili-Marleen.

[Grisha]

Patton won Kursk? Hehe, actually it was Razvedka and Maskirovka, 'Reconnaissance/Intelligence and Deception'. Soviet reconnaissance and deception, that is. Glantz believes that 'Lucy' and Ultra were actually small players in the unravelling of operation Zitadelle.

The Kursk salient was literally begging to be attacked by just being there, and most German armor units were already deployed there from the fall/winter 42/43 campaigning around Kharkov. Soviet intelligence data collection methods were quite efficient by this time, as were the many means of acquiring that intelliegence: air, agent/partisan, radio, engineer, artillery, and troop.

After the fiasco of Kharkov in late '42 the Soviets were now determined to be as pragmatic as possible in their operational assessments, taking great pains to confirm German intentions for summer of 1943. The picture emerging from their own intelligence efforts seemed to be confirming Soviet analysis on German intentions, but the Soviets wanted to know when, and continued razvedka on all levels. Outside intelligence also corroborated with Soviet findings, but was generally too vague to be of any real use in pinning the launch date. In the meantime, intense work was done on defensive works, and masking the redeployment of a large numbers of units into the area. Soviet intelligence confirmed that their deception efforts were quite effective as the Germans showed no reaction to the huge scale of Soviet buildup in and around the Kursk salient. Also, the Soviets planned the counteroffensive as an integral part of the defense of the Kursk salient, to be launched just as it became apparent that the Germans were running out of steam.

Operation Zitadelle was doomed from the start, though Prokharovka was a bit dicey for the Soviets.

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Best regards,

Greg Leon Guerrero

[bredberg]

Zitadelle and Patton?

109 Gustav:

I would recommend the fairly new book by Glantz, The Battle of Kursk which gives a much better picture of both sides, than Cross, Citadel: The Battle for Kursk.

Cross basis his book on mostly German info,

such as Manstein (Lost Victories), Carell

(SCORCHED EARTH), Mellenthin and Piekalkiewicz (UNTERNEHMEN "ZITADELLE") the last one responsible for the misinterpretation of the

Prokoharka battle. Cross book is not good...

Rexford:

You would be surprised (or maybe not) how few Tigers that was put out of action due to enemy fire, read Jentz Panzertruppen vol II.

Jasper:

Only SS-Pz Div 1 was order to Italy (SS Panzer 27 Corps did not exist), while Reich and Totenkopf (SS-Pz Div 2 and 3) was sent

to Mius (see Nipes book) to stem the Russian offensive.

I second that the Allies (non-russian) would

have a minor chance with the Normandy-landings if there were not ost-front. How many divisions landed in Normandy (5?) how many russian divisions attacked the ost-front in the summer of 44 (300?).

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

I know it's been said already but it's ALLIED ALLIED ALLIED ALLIED!!!! The Invasion of Sicily and fighting in Italy involved many many different nationalites, IIRC there was even a unit of Japanese fighting within the US forces! Sometimes I'm more than fed up with the US obsessed view seemingly held by some Americans and especially Hollywood. I'm sure that most Americans have more than enough intelligence to know what happened but with posts like that sometimes I wonder. Patton - Pah!

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"We're not here to take it - We're here to give it"

General Morshead's response to the popular newspaper headline "Tobruk Can Take It"

[Doug Beman]

Yeah, I said "patrol flights" but meant "enough planes to conduct offensive ops."

DjB

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

Yeah, I said "patrol flights" but meant "enough planes to conduct offensive ops."

Their offensive ops worked real good in 1940, too. Repeated attacks by bombers would have been cut apart just as much as they were in the Battle of Britian. Granted, they could have done night bombing again, but it was all but impossible to hit a target smaller than a city at night.

Posted by bredberg:

I would recommend the fairly new book by Glantz, The Battle of Kursk which gives a much better picture of both sides, than Cross, Citadel: The Battle for Kursk.

Thanks for the advice. Have to read it sometime before CM2 comes out.

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Basebal351]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

I know it's been said already but it's ALLIED ALLIED ALLIED ALLIED!!!! The Invasion of Sicily and fighting in Italy involved many many different nationalites, IIRC there was even a unit of Japanese fighting within the US forces! Sometimes I'm more than fed up with the US obsessed view seemingly held by some Americans and especially Hollywood. I'm sure that most Americans have more than enough intelligence to know what happened but with posts like that sometimes I wonder. Patton - Pah!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, Rex, you're just jealous that the UK didn't get to join the war before the Americans took Berlin. But, I WILL give credit to where credit is due. If it wasn't for America's almighty industry, we might not have been able to win the war single-handedly. You UK-landers would have been the first people we would have called, though, if we needed some help... or some more tea. We promise.

Thanks,

Jim