First Round Tungsten!

[Treeburst155]

I've never seen it before tonight but it finally happened. A Sherman 76 with 30 rounds of AP and 15 rounds of tungsten fired first round tungsten at a target identified as a Panther(?). The enemy AFV was indeed a Panther. The Panther was knocked out six seconds after being spotted by the veteran Sherman crew, a first shot tungsten kill at approximately 500 meters.

What caused the Sherman to fire tungsten first? Was it simply the fact that I gave him 15 rounds of the stuff? Or was it because the Sherman identified the target as a Panther(?) rather than something else? Whatever caused it I like it.

Treeburst155 out.

[Gyrene]

The Sherman crw made a mistake. They meant to fire HE.

Gyrene

[von Lucke]

Probably the fact you gave him 15(!) rounds of the stuff. Try it again with only 3 and see what happens...

[Wilhammer]

Recently, in a night scenario, a Sherman with one round of Tungsten first shot-killed a Hetzer at under 100 meters with it.

The first ever Tungsten round I can recall firing.

[Stixx]

Hetzers have extremely sloped armor. Tungsten is normally pretty dismal against em. Probably the fact that you were only 100m away helped

[Treeburst155]

I'm intrigued by Wilhammer's Hetzer story. This leads me to believe that how the unit is identified may be more important than how many tungsten rounds are available. Still, it's been my experience that AP is ALWAYS (until last night)fired first.

Treeburst155 out.

[CMplayer]

I've got two side-questions that I might as well ask here. They have to do with how slope is calculated:

1) Is the shell flight path taken into consideration? What I mean is, if the round is plunging slightly by the time it reaches the target is this angle subracted from the armor slope.

2) If a target tank is diagonally facing the firer, so that a round could equally well hit the side as the front, is this 'sideways' slope taken into account in calculating side penetrations?

thx to anyone who knows the CM and/or RL answers to these questions.

[Treeburst155]

IIRC from old threads the answers to your questions are "yes" and "yes". Your chance of penetrating the front armor of a vehicle is better if you are straight on rather than at an angle. Compound angles are taken into account. Firing at armor on the front side of a slope does decrease the effective slope of the armor.

Treeburst155 out.

[CMplayer]

Thanks for the speed 'o light answer TB155!

(edited to thank MachineMan and Wolfe as well. And anyone I forgot. I love this forum)

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[PJungnitsch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If a target tank is diagonally facing the firer, so that a round could equally well hit the side as the front, is this 'sideways' slope taken into account in calculating side penetrations?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was a fairly common technique in RL that Tigers and Stalins used, to position the tank 'oblique' (diagnol) to the line of fire. This took advantage of the relatively heavy side armour on both tanks to give the frontal armour a lot more effective slope.

The same reasoning was followed designing the Tiger II Henschel turret, in that the flat frontal area is minimised in favor of increasing the highly angled side area of the turret.

[Herr Kruger]

Once an enemy Sherman fired a Tungsten round first against my positively identified Hetzer at ~ 130 m and it ricocheted! (sp?)

[Kingfish]

While first use might be common for Panthers and Hetzers, Mark IVs mistaken for Tigers almost always get an AP round first. The second round is usually a 'T' round, but its still in the barrel because MY %#@*&! TANK FIREBALLED!!!!

[CMplayer]

Correct me if I'm mistaken but firing tungsten at a Hetzer would be a mistake, since tungsten does worse than ordinary AP against extremely sloped armor?

[Treeburst155]

I may be wrong, but I don't think tungsten is less effective against extremely sloped armor as compared to AP. It's just that some of the armor thickness and slope combinations can withstand even tungsten. I've bounced quite a bit of tungsten off Panthers in the past.

Treeburst155 out.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

1) Is the shell flight path taken into consideration? What I mean is, if the round is plunging slightly by the time it reaches the target is this angle subracted from the armor slope.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I think the answer to this one is No. The game draws a straight line between targeter and targetee and calculates the angle of impact from that. I seem to remember Steve and/or Charles clarifying this in a thread I can't currently find.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2) If a target tank is diagonally facing the firer, so that a round could equally well hit the side as the front, is this 'sideways' slope taken into account in calculating side penetrations?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As others have said, Yes this is definitely in. And I hope BTS is able to tweak the AI for CMBB so tanks, once they're engaged, don't continue turning their hulls until they're completely square to each other. Presently they do this much of the time, even if it's to the detriment of the tank (such as a Tiger which has both heavy side and frontal armor). For a Panther, it makes sense for the tank to be fairly square with its enemy, but for a PzIV, obliqued is definitely advantageous. Yes, I'm going to keep harping on this issue until it makes it into the game, dammit!

BTW, you need to be aware of not just of how your tank is turned, but also the slope it sits on. Lost a Panther once to a Sherm-75. The Panther was going down a steep hill. The Sherm was significantly higher than him. This combo was enough to allow an upper hull penetration from a 75mm AP shell! And no, it wasn't a weak point penetration either. T'was not a happy camper.

- Chris

[Wilhammer]

Just to further define what happened to me...

The Hetzer had it's gun turning towards me, it was about 60 meters away, and I was about 10 meters higher than it was. It had just stopped to rotate after moving in reverse.

The Actual shot to target angle was about 5-10% off the Horizontal, and 60 long/10 high meters (about 15 degrees?)in the vertical.

My question, was when did it decide to load tungsten? The TacAI knew that a Hetzer was in the area, as an infantry platoon had stumbled on it, and I had ordered the Sherman to target it (out of LOS). The Hetzer, next turn, backed out of the scattered trees into the street between two buildings, when the Sherman spotted it. The Sherman had been sent on a manuever to go down the same street to flank the Hetzer, but the Hetzer backed down the hill first.

So, not only was I lucky with the Tungsten, but both target and Sherman were moving.

It is my understanding that CM models the "chambered" round swap out. The Sherman had fired nothing but HE until this happened.

I was wondering if it reloaded between when I told it to go Hetzer hunting and finding the little bugger.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Wilhammer ]

[CMplayer]

I just checked on a Hellcat (76mm gun), and against highly sloped armor Tungsten is listed as having worse penetration ability than ordinary AP.

at 60 slope:

00AP 55 51 47 40

TUNG 54 47 39 28

Whereas at a 30 slope the TUNG was vastly superior, of course. Somewhere between 30 and 60 there is a switcheroo.

Now since this story is about a Hetzer, with 60 sloped frontal armor, this becomes a serious issue.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

[QB]2) If a target tank is diagonally facing the firer, so that a round could equally well hit the side as the front, is this 'sideways' slope taken into account in calculating side penetrations?

[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

try to knock out a tiger with AP 76mm rounds at a 45 degree angle to the front/side and you will find the answer to this question. i have had a very had time knocking out tigers at those angles with 76mm AP rounds!

as to first shot tungsten, i think the 15 rounds had a large factor in that. as to the hetzer, it hasnt happened to me, but im sure the tank crew wanted to make sure whatever it was, it was dead at that close of a range.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

Just to further define what happened to me...

The Hetzer had it's gun turning towards me, it was about 60 meters away, and I was about 10 meters higher than it was. It had just stopped to rotate after moving in reverse.

The Actual shot to target angle was about 5-10% off the Horizontal, and 60 long/10 high meters (about 15 degrees?)in the vertical.

My question, was when did it decide to load tungsten? The TacAI knew that a Hetzer was in the area, as an infantry platoon had stumbled on it, and I had ordered the Sherman to target it (out of LOS). The Hetzer, next turn, backed out of the scattered trees into the street between two buildings, when the Sherman spotted it. The Sherman had been sent on a manuever to go down the same street to flank the Hetzer, but the Hetzer backed down the hill first.

So, not only was I lucky with the Tungsten, but both target and Sherman were moving.

It is my understanding that CM models the "chambered" round swap out. The Sherman had fired nothing but HE until this happened.

I was wondering if it reloaded between when I told it to go Hetzer hunting and finding the little bugger.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Wilhammer ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe it models ""chambered" round swap out."

I really don't think the game models the fact that HE had been fired then somehow in anticpication of the need for tungsten the gunner loaded tungsten in the breach. IMHO the tanks and the AI decide at the very least minute, just before firing, which type of round leaves the muzzle.

I have never seen an Allied tank fire tungsten on the first round, but then again I have never had an allied tank with 15 rounds of the stuff handy. The real kiss of death in this game is an Allied 76 mm TD (any type) with only ONE round of tungsten, chances are approaching %100 that your tank will die before that one precious round of tungsten is expended.

just my observations....

-tom w

[Wilhammer]

it could be me..

against the same opponent, at night, I had a 75 mm armed German HT fire it's one 'C' round (the first thing it fired during the game) at a moving Sherman that was about 60 degrees deflection headed at me, when I one shot-killed it a range of about 110 meters.

...maybe I am just lucky.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

I don't believe it models ""chambered" round swap out."

I really don't think the game models the fact that HE had been fired then somehow in anticpication of the need for tungsten the gunner loaded tungsten in the breach. IMHO the tanks and the AI decide at the very least minute, just before firing, which type of round leaves the muzzle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you're right, Tom. The TacAI apparently is able to magically and instantaneously select and chamber the "right" round just before firing.

Michael

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I believe you're right, Tom. The TacAI apparently is able to magically and instantaneously select and chamber the "right" round just before firing.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks

any other comments?

-tom w

[BeWary]

Just a note about rotating to target. I've seen, on a number of occasions, tanks not rotating to be at perfectly 90 degree angles to their targets. They have often stopped so that their front is mostly exposed, and the side is only minimally exposed. This would seem to be the smartest thing to do. You'd want a much larger angle on that thinner side armor.

I thought I remember BTS saying that CM does model the firing of the round currently in the chamber. I know you guys have examples that seem to disprove this, but I seem to recall seeing tanks fire HE at other thanks if they were just firing it. Perhaps not. It's been a while since I've thought about it. Maybe another thing they can add into CMBB. Or, maybe, they add an extra few seconds to simulate pulling the current round out and putting the correct one in. This might be a smarter thing to do in RL, since once you fire, you expose yourself.

BeWary

[Treeburst155]

I think tanks with "c" rounds will always fire HE to clear the chamber before loading "c". IOW, I have never seen one of these support tanks fire "c" rounds at enemy armor without first firing HE. With tungsten and AP this does not appear to be the case. My Sherman spotted and killed a Panther in 6-7 seconds with tungsten on the first shot. No round swapping modelled there.

I'm very surprised to learn that tungsten is less effective than AP at 60 degrees slope. I'll have to pay more attention to the stats. That makes my first round tungsten shot not too bright. Luckily I hit the turret.

Treeburst155 out.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Treeburst155:

I think tanks with "c" rounds will always fire HE to clear the chamber before loading "c". IOW, I have never seen one of these support tanks fire "c" rounds at enemy armor without first firing HE. With tungsten and AP this does not appear to be the case. My Sherman spotted and killed a Panther in 6-7 seconds with tungsten on the first shot. No round swapping modelled there.

I'm very surprised to learn that tungsten is less effective than AP at 60 degrees slope. I'll have to pay more attention to the stats. That makes my first round tungsten shot not too bright. Luckily I hit the turret.

Treeburst155 out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have seen it...

when faced with no other choice I saw a Sherm 105 fire off a "c" round first before HE when faced with a Panther when it would really rather pop smoke and run away.

At over 700m the lone c round KO'd the Panther with a first shot hit and kill, it must have been a Lucky shot!!

-tom w