Continuing locked threads elsewhere

[Tankgirl]

I see that several threads I was participating in were locked by Mad(big brother)Matt before i could respond at length to some of the comments or queries about facts and sources etc. One particularly humorous thread, Madmatt joined in then locked it down. But that's his prerogative here. I realized this if for discussion the details of the game, and that's fine - so no hard feelings. It's just a shame since they were basically civil discussions on interesting and somewhat related bits of history.

So if anyone wants to continue this in a non-censored more democratic form, this is fine by me. On the news groups or even in pvt. e-mail.

P.S. I don't agree with locking them down, but i understand Madmatt has to keep in in the interests of his company and doesn't want customers feathers ruffled so no hard feelings, and keep up the fun games.

------------------

"Snowpants are sexy!"

http://www.geocities.com/wildhippychik/whp.htm

[Gunny Bunny]

Go here there is no censorship at this newsgroup:

http://www.geocities.com/combat_mission1/Charter.htm

The CM webboard is heavily censored as soon as they read something they do not like they lock the thread.

Regards,

Gunny Bunny

[David Aitken]

Gunny Bunny wrote:

> The CM webboard is heavily censored

Censorship is not the disapproval of that which you do not like. Censorship is the prohibition of that which serves a purpose which you feel to be in conflict with your own. If BTS were deleting threads and banning members, that would be censorship. I don't see that happening. All I see is the locking of threads which are deemed to be inappropriate or unwelcome. Locking does not prevent people from reading a thread – in fact, it attracts attention and causes more people to read it.

So I find your crusade against censorship to be somewhat misguided. There are a heck of a lot of contributors on this board, and how many have their threads summarily locked as you claim yours to be? Dare I suggest the problem might be less BTS's policies, and more what you choose to post? You don't seem to have spent very long trying, considering your grand total of 22 posts, most of which have been advertising your UseNet board.

David

[Gremlin]

Tankgirl, looks like we're thinking along the same lines:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015583.html

------------------

New to Combat Mission?

Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips.

[M. Bates]

The CM webboard is heavily censored as soon as they read something they do not like they lock the thread.

The forum is moderated,not censored.

If, as sometimes happens, someone posts something hugely offensive about the Holocaust, then the thread is locked.

If a particular character, say, posts cretinous and stupid remarks about CM's graphics without any understanding, then that gets locked.

------------------

Rugged Defense England Team Website:

http://combatmission.portland.co.uk

For all our AARs

------------------

"I drive over farmyard animals in my farmyard tractor, then I laugh afterwards."--CavScout [comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical]

[Gremlin]

Better to educate the cretinous that shut them up

------------------

New to Combat Mission?

Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips.

[Jeff Heidman]

Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: 2censor

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/

Date: 1882

: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable

Censorship defintely goes on on this forum. That is not a bad thing.

People censor stuff all the time. As long as it is not government censoring someone freedom to speak in the US, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it.

I refuse to let evangelists sermonize in my living room for example, because I find it objectionable.

BTS does not allow people to talk about things that are not topical to this board because they find that objectionable.

Jeff Heidman

[Gremlin]

Actually, there's lots of OT stuff that survives here, and lots of on-topic stuff that does get shut down.

------------------

New to Combat Mission?

Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips.

[Tankgirl]

Look I think there are two things that need to be addressed here.

1. Censorship certainly occurs here. I mean, don't delude yourself. However it's legal and this is the prerogative of BTS. As i said, I don't like it, but I understand why they do it, even if I disagree.

2. There are other forms where these discussions can take place, uncensored, and freely and openly on the internet. So we are not being particularly harmed in our free speech by it being curtailed here. They just want to keep to issues regarding the game - to help customers and to encourage business. We all understand that. That serious historical discussion et al is not allowed here is regrettable, and i have strong views on it, but it's not the end of the world.

------------------

"Snowpants are sexy!"

http://www.geocities.com/wildhippychik/whp.htm

[PawBroon]

That forum is a private forum...

In all fairness one should consider that having the possibility to discuss different matters in here in direct contact with knowledgeable people and with the actual designers of the game is a God send gift.

There is NO such thing as democracy in here.

If you were in MY living room then you'd just have to shut up or leave altogether.

That topic had been discussed time and again.

For a private forum held by a private company, the level of things allowed to be said and of points to be criticized in rather high.

If you are into bashing go play on Usenet.

That forum has MODERATORS, it also sports that nice and dandy PADLOCK feature.

So if the bald bouncer give you the boot once in a while, don't fret.

If you are unhappy with either the game or the way BTS manage its client relationship, send them an eMail and go find some place whith designers as willing and comprehensive as Steve & Charles...

------------------

You are not Obsessive-CMpulsive, you are Allied-Retentive.

Mark IV

[This message has been edited by PawBroon (edited 01-27-2001).]

[WolfLord]

I am in complete agreement with Madmatt locking one of those threads (Vietnam). Just wanted to say, CavScout, I know we have had our differences, but I agree 100% with your viewpoint in that thread.

Anyway, sure I'd love to continue the discussion on another forum as someone has to be champion of morality there

[Chupacabra]

TankGirl - you call the threads that were shut down "serious historical discussion?"

What I read was more like seriously misinformed tripe, to be honest.

------------------

Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Michael Dorosh]

I agree with many of the points raised above. One suggestion that others forums have done is to have a free fire zone, or bar, or whatever you want to call it - a completely off topic forum to discuss all the stupid stuff in.

[Gunny Bunny]

Don't worry about the BTS party soldiers posting on this thread they are all just Gunny Bunny wannabe's.

There are leaders ( me ) and there are followers ( them ). They just follow me around and add nothing creative and significant to the discussions.

Go to alt.games.combat-mission

You won't find the truth at a webboard censored by the owners of the software.

Regards,

Gunny Bunny

[stodge]

I've got a forum on my site, if you want to discuss things there:

http://www.stodge.net/forum/viewforum.php?forum=18

[Chupacabra]

Originally posted by Gunny Bunny:

Don't worry about the BTS party soldiers posting on this thread they are all just Gunny Bunny wannabe's.

There are leaders ( me ) and there are followers ( them ). They just follow me around and add nothing creative and significant to the discussions.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

*sniffle*

Thanks for the laugh.

------------------

Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Hiram Sedai]

I don't believe what I'm reading this morning. There are hundreds of Off topic threads that thrive and survive because we need an outlet for our creative energies. Matt et al have done an excellent job IMHO in stopping the ones that could_turn_into_a_flamefest.

Here is my background: I've posted on BBS's and messageboards since 1986. I've seen the trolls and the teens cruising for love.

This CM community does not suffer from censorship. There is moderation and I'm glad because of it. We sometimes have an idiot come in late and post random stuff to mess with the board. See Gay lover about a month back with Benny M. Without moderation, we would be preyed upon by those idiots.

My email is in my profile if you object to my statements. I won't continue it here, I just wanted to state my opinion.

Thanks




------------------
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

[Tankgirl]

Originally posted by Chupacabra:

TankGirl - you call the threads that were shut down "serious historical discussion?"

What I read was more like seriously misinformed tripe, to be honest.

I'm sure from where you're sitting that's exactly what it looked like. However they were shut down before we could really explore them and I, and other both pro and con, could respond. However it looks like we'll be able to take it to other forms etc. like i said above so it's not a huge deal in the end.

------------------

"Snowpants are sexy!"

http://www.geocities.com/wildhippychik/whp.htm

[Major Tom]

There are reasons why certain threads need closing. Those Vietnam ones certainly did, because they were inflamatory, even though I do disagree with CavScout virtually 100% (WolfLord, don't try to rehash old locked topics! GRR!) on this one, this isn't the time nor the place. However, bringing up other off topic things like the 'Pearl Harbor Movie' and 'Anyone here a Pacifist' are just asking for vastly different opinions and growth of the thread to be even further off topic. It would be best if all of these side topics, ala 'Best movie', 'worst movie' even the venerated 'Peng threads' would be removed ASAP they are just as off topic, and open to possibility of inflamatory remarks as a thread about Vietnam. Madmatt saw something that was about to burst open to something verbally abusive, in the 'Pacifist thread' he probably even left it too long (at least for my taste!).

From what I read of everyone's post, there was a certain amount of truth in all of them. Stating that what someone wrote was trype is trying to attack their opinion without really addressing anything. You may not agree with what they say, but that doesn't mean that it is not true. Actually, the statements that I tend to agree with more are I/O Error's. They contained probably the greatest amount of truth in anything that I have read in a while. It was amazing that everyone (except Babra) jumped on him, stating that what he said was 'sacriledge' or something.

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

I don't believe what I'm reading this morning. There are hundreds of Off topic threads that thrive and survive because we need an outlet for our creative energies. Matt et al have done an excellent job IMHO in stopping the ones that could_turn_into_a_flamefest.

Here is my background: I've posted on BBS's and messageboards since 1986. I've seen the trolls and the teens cruising for love.

This CM community does not suffer from censorship. There is moderation and I'm glad because of it. We sometimes have an idiot come in late and post random stuff to mess with the board. See Gay lover about a month back with Benny Manieri. Without moderation, we would be preyed upon by those idiots.

My email is in my profile if you object to my statements. I won't continue it here, I just wanted to state my opinion.

Thanks

1986 was when the company I directed for got Internet, and I started in Usenet. I saw Usenet go from one of the most intellectual and challenging boards in the world to a quagmire of SPAM, harrassment, and unsupported accusation. I was there when the real freedom of speech issues were batted about, how many people posted on alt.sex, alt drugs, and alt.rockandroll during those protests (myself for one under my alternate name Goathead.) ? Sadly, I have not even had a news reader on my computer that could talk with Usenet for the past 3 years, after penis pump spams became so common that nothing else could be said on most forums.

However, there is certainly still a certain order to Usenet. You want to talk about the social impact of Vietnam, go to the correct group to voice your opinion, no experience needed an no one can lock you out on all but the most high ranking threads. Here at CM BBS, lots of OT goes on, but this is by no means a testing ground for freedom of speech, nore is it fair to make BTS servers carry the load for any conversation that they do not like. The fact that they let it happen a lot is a plus for them. There is no minus for them shutting down a thread.

As for issues of changing the game -- if that is what you truly want to do, then here is the place to be. The problem is, and I stress this, that baseless conjecture dressed up as customer critique without facts and or tight reasoning to back it up will recieve a short shrift here. If you truly want a peer review of your idea trot over to the Peng thread and air it out. What Gunny Bunny and others want is actually the ability to make claims with no support. In this case -- Usenet is the right place to be, and better yet -- a Usenet thread dedicated to discussions that cannot hack prime time. Sort of like off off broadway.

There is nothing wrong with starting a place that recquires less rigour for discussion on Usenet in fact, because BTS will never react to it and nothing will change. In the long run though changing the game requires a sound argument, presented coherently, defended against the capable peer reveiw of the boards citizens, possibly modified to better match historical and / or playability facts, and then generally accepted and tested by BTS itself in the form of playtesters kicking its tires.

If you do not care about changing the game -- you want to comment on a mod pack, make a joke, complain about being beaten, etc, then this forum is as open as ever to that. Don't think so? Read the Peng thread(s).

[Bruno Weiss]

Okay, have we explored this topic sufficiently? Now, lets get to an exploration of something really significant to the historical aspects of CM. What was the number of British Soldiers captured at the Battle of the Kiber Pass, and who really was Gunga Din?

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Okay, have we explored this topic sufficiently? Now, lets get to an exploration of something really significant to the historical aspects of CM. What was the number of British Soldiers captured at the Battle of the Kiber Pass, and who really was Gunga Din?

I've read several accounts of Canadian water trucks (every infantry battalion had one) being named GUNGA DIN in honour of the real Gunga Din. When the I Canadian Corps headquarters arrived in Italy, they ordered the truck drivers of the 1st Canadian Division to paint out the names on their trucks - didn't look "military". The 8th Army had always been rather informal in manners of dress and appearance, and under British Corps commanders, the Canadians got away with a lot of non-regulation "uniforms."

One exception was in Sicily, when General Montgomery drove past a truck belonging to the 48th Highlanders of Canada. The driver, who was wearing a top hat, didn't know if he should salute, and instead doffed the hat politely.

He was also stark-assed naked from the neck down. (It was quite hot in Sicily in July of 1943)

General Montgomery shortly after issued the only dress regulation he ever personally promulgated.

"Top Hats will no longer be worn in 8th Army."

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

Okay, have we explored this topic sufficiently? Now, lets get to an exploration of something really significant to the historical aspects of CM. What was the number of British Soldiers captured at the Battle of the Kiber Pass, and who really was Gunga Din?

Gunga Din was one of the 64 people who shot at Kennedy the day he was killed. His cover was as a CBS news caster, and his real name was Gunga Dan Rather, Gunga Din being a mistake because the Commonwealth soldier never got the hang of spelling things when using manual type writers (look at the number of times they screw up the words color, and armor.

[Mr. Clark]

The Forums at the 21st Century Toys (basically war action figures) website was COMPLETELY closed down. This happened because some of the forum participants would not stop refering to an action figure of a vietnam "enemy" soldier using racist, derogitory terms. They also had a few people posting who were, at the very least, Nazi idolizers. This obviously reflected poorly on the company itself, and on collectors of soldier action figures in general.

I'm DEFINATELY not saying anything that bad has happened here! However, from that experience I do certainly understand how much this Forum reflects on BTS as a company. Thus, it's perfectly understandable to me why this forum is monitored so closely.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

The Forums at the 21st Century Toys (basically war action figures) was COMPLETELY closed down. This happened because some of the forum participants would not stop refering to an action figure of a vietnam "enemy" soldier using racist, derogitory terms. They also had a few people posting who were, at the very least, Nazi idolizers. This obviously reflected poorly on the company itself, and on collectors of soldier action figures in general.

I'm DEFINATELY not saying anything that bad has happened here! However, from that experience I do certainly understand how much this Forum reflects on BTS as a company. Thus, it's perfectly understandable to me why this forum is monitored so closely.

Remetal had the same thing happened a number of years ago. A group of people who politely would be called holocaust deniers and more serious would be called Nazi abortions kept alive by brain transplants using intestinal material from garbage eating jackals got on and started the politics thing when the only thing people wanted to talk about was little metal tank miniatures and various games that used them. The company was a single guy who lived in Tampa, and he ran the BBS through compuserve. When the Nazi's turned every discussion of miniature rules into a disucssion of why Jewish people controlled the Internet and why they controlled game conventions, and why this or that game judge was a Jew, then the board was shut down by its owner as pointless. I am sure that there are a dozen cases of this happening.

Even on this BBS there are a few who start flame wars when they cannot come up with compelling facts or argue a case effectively. Their goal may be to get the thread closed by flaming it closed, knowing that BTS is relatively sparing in its use of death penalties (everyone makes mistakes after all), and rarely use them for less than outright illegal behavior or a series of problems.