saru3000 Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Solidarity bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Exit for points: why is the default position 'enabled'? Seems to me it should be 'disabled'. Say like the mission is to get the convoy off the map. The trucks exit for points, everyone else does not. As it stands you have to laboriously change each member of the support army (much more numerous than 4 trucks) to 'does not exit for points'. And if you change the OOB in the middle of testing you have to remember to do that each time. Maybe I'm the only one who designs 'get the convoy off the map' scenarios too. But it seems backwards to me. ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ so many games...so little time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Pattison Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 I noticed the other day that the AI doesn't setup his infantry platoons together at all when defending in operations when allowed to freely setup. In constrast, in every QB I checked, he does set them up together and in command. What gives? Maybe, there should be flags in operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by MarkEzra: This is an important issue for all scen designers. I hope CM Design team members will pick up on this thread. This information is also important for those of us that are "gamey" players. I need this stuff... sort of along the lines of an ASLRB. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted February 6, 2001 Author Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by Jeff Pattison: I noticed the other day that the AI doesn't setup his infantry platoons together at all when defending in operations when allowed to freely setup. In constrast, in every QB I checked, he does set them up together and in command. What gives? Maybe, there should be flags in operations. Yes...this is particularly annoying and I would love to know why this happens, too, and how to prevent it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Franko, 1. Specifically how are the frontlines calculated between battles, and does it matter whether the Operation is set to advance, destroy, or assault for the purpose of this calculation? Whats the formula? The positions of the units on the map are examined and weighted according to unit strength (i.e. a King Tiger "captures" more ground than a squad with one man left alive). In advance and assault operations, the attacker is weighted a bit more heavily than the defender. A new front line is calculated to lie between the preponderance of forces on either side. 2. How are supply replenishments calculated? at the various settings..and how does the time settings (e.g., the quantity of battles per day) impact this? Ample: replenish = 100%, max = 100% Full: replenish = 75%, max = 100% Adequate: replenish = 55%, max = 100% Limited: replenish = 40%, max = 75% Scarce: replenish = 25%, max = 50% Severe: replenish = 13%, max = 33% Time settings don't affect resupply. 3. Vehicle Recovery and Repair -- what ARE the chances for the various settings? This is a complicated question to answer because we don't use a lookup table. Depending on setting, the base chance ranges from 0% to 85%. But there is an enforced delay between the knock out and when you can recover the vehicle. Usually you're forced to wait until night time, sometimes the following night. In general, you shouldn't count on seeing your vehicles repaired and back again unless the operation spans several days. 4. What does the "end of the map" mean for Advance or Assault operations? when ONE tank, or squad can exit off? It gets kind of stupid when there's only 100 meters left and the losing side suddenly gets a ton of guys along the remaining strip of territory. Limiting the map edge is a concession to limited computer power. Most computers just can't handle a battlefield that's 6000m wide and long. That's why ops use the "sliding window" battlefield. 5. On page 115 of your manual, it states "It may take a few tries to understand the subtleties of the [Operations types], but the more you think about historical examples, the better your options will be." Now, I think I've thought about historical examples as much as the next guy..Can you clue me into some of these subtleties? I mean, this is sort of a cop-out statement. I'd be willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement if you're worried about trade secrets. I'm serious. I just want to design cool stuff where dumb things don't happen much. Assault = When the attacker is expected to cover limited ground against a powerful, prepared defender. (Think Operation Cobra in its very early stages) Advance = When the attacker is expected to cover a lot of ground against scattered or disorganized resistance. This is "maneuver warfare". (Think Operation Cobra in its late stages) Destroy = When the objective is for the attacker to eliminate the defender's forces, not specifically to capture terrain. (Think Arnhem). 6. Reserve Pools. How are the "battalion", "regimental" or "divisional" reserves triggered? Can you be more specific than the "things start hitting the fan" stuff contained in the manual? The computer looks at the relative strengths of the two sides after each battle. If one side is doing poorly, the reserves may be released. The threshold at which a reserve unit is released depends on its type. Battalion reserves aren't that hard to trigger, i.e. you don't have to be doing too badly to receive these. But divisional reserves are given only when things are going quite badly. Attacker gets reserve if relative strength to defender is below... 1.8:1 Battalion 1.4:1 Regimental 1.0:1 Division Defender gets reserve if relative strength to attacker is below... 1:2 Battalion 1:3 Regimental 1:4 Division 7. Do you have more developed information that you can release to the CM community that will aid in scenario/operations design? [8. If you do not wish to disclose the information requested for in this post because you're too dang busy doing CM2 or whatever, would you consider disclosing it to me, or some other member of the CM community, so we can write a handy manual to be posted for everyone to use? Hopefully this post will answer your questions? Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Charles, thanks a lot for the clarifications. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Thanks Charles! : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 All right Charles! Hopefully this will go a ways towards creating better ops. Solidarity people, it's a helluva a force (just kidding with the peoples power stuff folks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Thank you, Charles, that should be quite a boon to Op designers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Thank you BTS, once again. Have you already organized some kind of process for determining interesting/feasible/desirable enhancements for the operations in CM2, especially from operation designer's point of view? Some suggestions were already offered in this thread, and I'm sure there could be many more. Overall, I think operations have lots of potential that has not been truly realised yet. [This message has been edited by JPS (edited 02-06-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Thank you Charles. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Another feature that might be useful is having the original forces in a scenario removed. For example, if you have a battalion assaulting a defensive work, and after three battles, the reserve is committed - it would be nice to have an option where the original battalion is withdrawn from the line. Looking at the recon threads, this would be a way of simulating that - the first battle could involve the lightly armed recce/recon force, who would be out to learn what they could about the enemy's dispositions. After that battle was over, the attacking player would lose his recon units and have them replaced with the actual assault formations. The historical operation I designed involved attacks by two battalions along a narrow front; but one battalion was replaced by the other - not augmented by it. "Removing" the initial force from the player's control would be a worthwhile feature to have in operations, at least on the attacker's side. I can see instances where it could be used on the defence as well. Thanks for printing the ratios, by the way - that does make things a little easier to understand. I'd still like to see someone come up with a full fledged operations-creation tutorial. Franko? ------------------ http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmbits.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 BTS' post HAS to go into a FAQ somewhere!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by IntelWeenie: BTS' post HAS to go into a FAQ somewhere!! We could keep bumping it until MadMatt yells at us and makes us cry?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Where can I find Franko's scenarios? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Manx's www.combatmissions.co.uk ASL CM conversion site www.asl2cm.com Some exists in CMHQ Scenario depot. Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ales Dvorak Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Franco! Minor wictory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted February 7, 2001 Author Share Posted February 7, 2001 Thank you BTS! You guys are awesome man! That gives me enough to chew on for now! I have two new ops and three scenarios to finish! Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 I still don't understand the answer to Franko's question #4 "what does end of the map mean for advance and assualt ops?". What I wish to understand is: 1. For an advance operation: Do all the advancing forces have to "touch" the end of the map? 2. Do the advancing forces have to touch the whole "width" of the end of the map? 3. Is there a percentage of the force which must reach the end? Also: If all the defending forces are destroyed (except for future reinforcements)during a battle in an Advance Operation, and the advance reaches the end of the map, why would the operation not end? This happened playing Franko's 'Battle of Butgenbuch'. The operation would continue with the reinforcements forming up on the edge of the map. And also: Why do the defending AI forces leave their defensive foxholes and advance on the "advancing players" positions during an Advance Operation?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 One more question: If in an operation the support weapons (of the advancing party) are far back from the frontline when one battle ends, will the new position of frontline be negatively affected compared to situation where also the support weapons are close to frontline? My limited experience suggests so - hope I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 >What I wish to understand is: Wish granted >1. For an advance operation: Do all the advancing forces have to "touch" the end of the map? No. The battle map window (the portion of the whole map that you are playing on) has to reach the end of the operational map. In other words, when you advance far enough that the next battle window reach "past" the end of the operational map, you have "reached the map edge" by game terms. 2. Do the advancing forces have to touch the whole "width" of the end of the map? Nope. See 1. 3. Is there a percentage of the force which must reach the end? Nope. See 1. Enough forces have to come close enough to the end of the map to make the "battle window" move as outlined in 1. >Also: If all the defending forces are destroyed (except for future reinforcements)during a battle in an Advance Operation, and the advance reaches the end of the map, why would the operation not end? This happened playing Franko's 'Battle of Butgenbuch'. The operation would continue with the reinforcements forming up on the edge of the map. That's because and Advance Operation is essentially a delay action (as seen from the defending point of view). And when there is much more map to cover AND reinforcements are scheduled, the games will consider the initial front line of the defender overrun but give him the chance to further delay your advance with fresh forces. Mind you, the objective is to reach the end of the map, NOT to destroy the defender. >And also: Why do the defending AI forces leave their defensive foxholes and advance on the "advancing players" positions during an Advance Operation?. For the same reason they might do it in scenarios, sometimes. The AI is not human intelligence, and an operation (spanning usually much longer than a single scenario) will always tend to bring the "inadequacies" of an artificial intelligence (as good as it might be) vs. a human intelligence to the foreground. Having said that - I am sure that Charles can do something about this. While the AI SHOULD go out and counter-attack in Assault type operations, this should be limited in Advance type operations. However, despite having played a lot of operations (and designed a lot of them myself, too), I really haven't observed this behaviour too often... Martin ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 Moon, Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to grant my "Wish". Although I don't know for sure, I did in fact reach the end of the operational map in the "Battle of Butgenbach" (the edge listed "Butgenbach 2Km", and after the defending forces were destroyed, the reinforcements did form up on the same battle map (only on the very limited space provided at the edge). Seening the exact same battle map again, made me think the limit of the operation map had been reached. I wasn't looking at a new battle map with any more distance to travel, but the same map I had just destroyed the defending forces on in the previous battle. Hence, I grew tired of the operation and quit after two more similar battles. It would have seemed that if there was more distance to travel, there should be a new battle map reflecting the additional distance to go. I dunno. Thanks again, Drift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Ok, I read the meaning of Assault, Advance, and destroy, I am in the middle of building a historic Operation, It has been play tested two or three times a day vs. AI and the Allied attackers have failed to win. The Parameters are set on Destroy, In the last playing of this Operation in version 1.12 All Germans on map Dead! Yet 8 where shown OK, I assume they ran off the map. Axis Minor Victory with 8 men not even on map?? There are settings for Assault and Destroy? How could I have changed the settings so the allies would of one this scenario? Yes they took a lot of caualties? Next on Advance setting you must reach end of map? Does that mean a gamey move like a jeep at the edge of the map will end the scenario? Looking forward to some answers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Drift - are you sure this is an advance operation? Gonzo - "There are settings for Assault and Destroy? How could I have changed the settings so the allies would of one this scenario? Yes they took a lot of caualties?" In a destroy type operation, pretty much the only thing that counts are casualties. If the Allies lost more men and equipment than the Germans, than they will lose the battle, even if they "clear the table". You can counter something like this by giving the Allies bonus points. This can be done in the parameter section of a scenario or operation. It's a quick way to balance games which might have uneven force mixes from the start. It's also a neat way (which I haven't seen utilized by scenario designers yet) to take a historical (and unbalanced) battle and turn it into a balanced game. "Next on Advance setting you must reach end of map? Does that mean a gamey move like a jeep at the edge of the map will end the scenario?" No. A single jeep won't have enough "force" to pull the whole map window "forward". The "reach the map end" part does not mean that one of your units has to actually go out and "touch" the map edge. What it means is that you have to advance the bulk of your forces far enough that the battle map window reaches the end of the operational map. "Looking forward to some answers?" I hope I was able to answer some... ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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