Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 I've decided to run a lengthy series of tests of various armor matchups in CM. There are countless tests that could be run, especially when you consider that any vehicle matchup could be tested at a variety of ranges and experience combinations. As I complete these tests I will report the results here. Here's the first one: TEST ONE Crack M36 Jackson vs Regular Panther (PzVG late) at 550 meters for one minute. Tested 154 times. 35% of the crack Jacksons survived the minute including one immobilized vehicle. Vehicles are considered destroyed if they sustain gun damage. 48% of the regular Panthers survived the minute including four immobilized vehicles. Again, gun damage = Destroyed. In no case did both vehicles survive the minute. If there is some combination you would like to see tested just email me. Treeburst155 out. [ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogface21 Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 154 times?? I wish I had that much time... How about the Puma vs. Greyhound M4A1 vs. PzIV These are both common(IMO)matchups, how do they turn out? Oh, BTW, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 It does take some time, but my curiosity requires me to run these tests. I do it while I watch the non-stop war coverage on the cable news channels. I'll run the Puma vs Greyhound next. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Shot trap. Comparing Panther A or G with G late. How much easier is it to kill the shot-trap stuff with Greyhounds or 75mm Shermans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 Redwolf, You want me to put a Greyhound or 75mm Sherman against a Panther just to see how many shot trap kills they get? I'll bet Panther survival rate will be 99%. I'll put that test on my list. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Treeburst155: You want me to put a Greyhound or 75mm Sherman against a Panther just to see how many shot trap kills they get? I'll bet Panther survival rate will be 99%. I'll put that test on my list. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, more like 10 (or more) Allied against 2 Panthers each. Something to see the raise in the weak spot penetration chance, which should go from 1% to 10% for shot trap tanks, but according to my testing, ends up more like 3-5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 i am REALLY hoping that you have about 50 tanks vs 50 tanks against each other on one map, separated by bocage or a high wall, and not just one tank vs one tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 That's a tough one, Redwolf. The Allied vehicles would probably use smoke rather than shoot. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 TEST TWO Regular Greyhound vs Regular Puma at 550 meters. Tested 150 times. Greyhound one minute survival rate: 44% Puma one minute survival rate: 31% In no case did both vehicles survive the minute. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogface21 Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Ahhh-HAAA! I always liked the greyhound...Thanks! Anything like a double kill happen? Ive only seen this once,where two units firing at eachother kill eachother at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 Yes, double kills are actually quite frequent. Notice that the survival percentages do not total 100%. It would seem to me this is because of the double kills. TEST THREE Regular M4A3 Sherman vs Regular Panzer IVJ at 550 meters. Tested 150 times. M4A3 Sherman one minute survival rate: 35% Panzer IVJ one minute survival rate: 43% In no case did both vehicles survive the minute. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Very interesting I shall have to write these down so I can remember what's what. Cool move Treeburst155. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Tree, Thanks a lot for the tests. Gee, you really got to get a life. :eek: :eek: :eek: You do know that I am kidding Lol. Also, since you are at it. How about a test of a stgIII vs a sherman 300 meters or so (common range for such battles). You are kind and a bit crazy. But we love you & we await with bated breath. Thanks & Cheers, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 You're welcome, guys. That's it for tonight. Tomorrow I'll test a regular Stug IIIG (late) vs regular M4A3 Sherman at 300 meters; and something I'm curious about, a vet M10 TD with five rounds of tungsten (plus default AP) vs a regular Jagdpanzer IV. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Treeburst155: something I'm curious about, a vet M10 TD with five rounds of tungsten (plus default AP) vs a regular Jagdpanzer IV.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here's something weird. Line up a M10 with no tungsten 500m from a JPz IV and target it. You get a kill chance of "good". Give it a few round of tungsten and the kill chance goes down to "ok". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 Tungsten has less ability to penetrate highly sloped armor than AP. Perhaps the chances were borderline "good" with the AP. When you added the tungsten rounds the chances dropped into the "ok" range. Ya think? Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Not really. Because logically the TacAI should pick which ever round has the best penetration. If tungsten is less effective than AP then tungsten will not be used, so the kill chance should remain the same. [ 10-20-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Treeburst, why 154 times? Just curious, I figured an even number like 100 or even 50 would suffice. Are all terrain conditions even? Thanks for posting these results, altough an even experience match up would be better. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene: Treeburst, why 154 times? Just curious, I figured an even number like 100 or even 50 would suffice. Are all terrain conditions even? Thanks for posting these results, altough an even experience match up would be better. Gyrene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 154 tests was a result of my changing the number of firing lanes on the test scenario during testing. I'm running the tests 150 times so that my results are as close as possible to the truth. There's a bigger margin of error than you may think, even with 150 runs. One of our statistician types told me that awhile back. The test range has 10 isolated firing lanes so I run the turn 15 times. I'm doing all sorts of experience matchups. The uneven ones are in there because I'm looking for close matches. It has to do with my endless quest for play balance. It looks like a vet M10 is a great match for a regular Jagdpanzer IV. I'm not done with the test yet however. BTW, the test field is a billiard table with clear weather. I'm just interested in head on shootouts with no cover. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 Vanir, I'm not sure the Tac AI is that smart. I think it says, "I can't penetrate THE HULL with AP so I'll load tungsten". This "thinking" will always decrease penetration chances against heavily sloped hulls, but may just be overkill on the turrets/superstructures, thereby not increasing kill chances to the turret. IOW, the Tac AI does not consider WHY it can't penetrate with AP. If the cause is a 60 degree slope then the AI should stay with AP unless the turret is also resistant to the AP, like a Panther. I'm just thinking out loud here. I could be dead wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Treeburst155: I'm not sure the Tac AI is that smart. I think it says, "I can't penetrate THE HULL with AP so I'll load tungsten".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The problem is that the M10 can penetrate the hull of the JPz IV with AP. In fact, in my limited testing it penetrated the upper hull and superstructure consistantly at 500m. The TacAI apparently is aware that tungsten is not useful or not needed, because it always fires AP even with 5 tungsten rounds on board. So why does having the tungsten lower the kill chance? Still dunno... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 How bout some long range fire testing. I have done a fair bit of game testing for this aspect myself, but it would be nice to have some corroborating information. Say: Regular Tiger I @ 2000m firing at 4 or 5 green Sextons Elite Tiger I @ 2000m firing at 4 or 5 green Sextons Regular Tiger I @ 2500m firing at 4 or 5 green Sextons Elite Tiger I @ 2500m firing at 4 or 5 green Sextons Rerun each test about ten times recording hit to miss. (use sextons as they don’t have smoke dischargers…also remove all of their smoke ammunition before playing test scenario). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette: [QB]How bout some long range fire testing. Say: Regular Tiger I @ 2000m<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately CM1 isn't built with long distance duels in mind. Not only is the miss rate pretty high, but over 2000m once a tank becomes buttoned, it can no longer see any other unit than the one it is currently shooting at. Mentioned this issue before: Buttoned tanks have limited LOS? The game has changed slightly; you no longer lose LOS to your current target after buttoning in CM 1.12. Though the other as-yet untargeted tanks still disappear after the Tiger buttons. Hopefully will be fixed for CMBB. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 TEST FOUR VETERAN M10 Tank Destroyer vs REGULAR Jagdpanzer IV at 550 meters. Tested 150 times. Jagdpanzer IV survival rate: 39% M10 survival rate: 39% (including 4 immobilizatons) Mutual destruction: 22% The VET M10 is a great match for a regular Jagdpanzer IV. Survival rate of the M10 without including the immobilizations is still close to 37%. BTW, my margin of error is at least +/- 5% for these tests. Maybe a statistician will see this thread and confirm that for me. Even so, you get a fairly good idea of what your chances are in various duels. I'll save the long range testing for CMBB where it will be more relevant. Time to move on to the StuG IIIG (late) vs M4A3 Sherman at 300 meters. Treeburst155 out. [ 10-20-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 TEST FIVE Regular M4A3 Sherman vs Regular StuG IIIG (late) at 304 meters. Tested 150 times. Stug IIIG (late) survival rate: 38% (including 4 immobilizations) M4A3 Sherman suvival rate: 33% (including 5 immobilizations) Mutual destruction: 29% This is a good even matchup. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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