I 've Been Wanting To Post This Bug For Awhile Now...

[Col Deadmarsh]

In a couple of my games, I've noticed that vehicles will plot movement orders for themselves without my having my consent. The new orders are made by the AI both when I had no orders given to the vehicles for that turn and also when they were in the middle of orders. The movement orders are always a bunch of movements (10-20) of small movements bunched up together when you look at the movement path. Has anyone come across this yet?

[Ellros]

If it (the AI) changed a move order you had given it... look closely at the route you chose. Since vehicles cannot negotiate slopes, I've seen the AI replot (using many waypoints) a route around the slope.

If no move order was given, then was the vehicle under fire, or caught near any artillery strikes? The AI will move away on its own, and you'll see any remaining waytpoints if it doesn't finish by the end of the turn.

[Redwolf]

That is done when you plotted through inpassable terrain.

However, there is a real bug here: if the last order you gave ended in a rotate command, that rotate is changed to a move. Yes it is moving to whetherever you said it should rotate to, to the endpoint of the rotate line graphics. No, Madmatt doesn't respond to bug reports so if anyone wants that fixed he has to report himself.

[edited: I am talking about "fixed for CMBB", no a CMBO patch. Unless someone fiksch or do somefink CMBB will inherit CMBO bugs like this one and the split-squad victory point bug]

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p>

[Mace]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf:

Ni Madmatt doesn't respond to bug reports so if anyone wants that fixed he has to report himself.<hr></blockquote>

You can report it, but bare in mind that there will probably not be any more bug fixes for CMBO, unless BTS can squeeze some time in between completing CMBB and working on the CM2 engine.

Mace

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mace:

You can report it, but bare in mind that there will probably not be any more bug fixes for CMBO, unless BTS can squeeze some time in between completing CMBB and working on the CM2 engine.

Mace<hr></blockquote>

I am talking about CMBO bugs that will go into CMBB unless someone reports them.

[Pak40]

I find it interesting that you you call the actions of a smart AI (a feature that we all complain is missing in most other games), a "bug".

The AI is taking things into it's own hands, for once. In other games such as Close Combat and various RTS games these units would be stuck or pace back and forth under the same circumstances. But in Combat Mission, the units are generally smart enough to plot a coarse around an obstacle or reverse out of a dangerous situation.

No bugs here, just smart AI.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pak40:

I find it interesting that you you call the actions of a smart AI (a feature that we all complain is missing in most other games), a "bug".

The AI is taking things into it's own hands, for once. In other games such as Close Combat and various RTS games these units would be stuck or pace back and forth under the same circumstances. But in Combat Mission, the units are generally smart enough to plot a coarse around an obstacle or reverse out of a dangerous situation.

No bugs here, just smart AI.<hr></blockquote>

The bug here is that a rotate at the end of the original sequence is changed to a move command. Try it out.

[Dirtweasle]

Sometimes the Tac AI moves for itself.

I had it happen months ago, and just had it happen again. I had a TD in a bad situation and the Tac AI moved it on it's own. In this case as it turned out to an even worse place where it got popped by a German Assault track. As it turned out my escorting zook team got wiped out in like the first 10 seconds, and as the TD moved, the enemy half track then came into view and shot the TD, closely followed by a 2nd TD that missed and the half track killed it too. Now, had the 1st TD stayed where it was, who is to say what might have happened... al in al I should never have had the TD where it was, but was hunting a Panther and got careless with the situation.

In one PBEM game early on, about a year or so ago it seems like, my opponent claimed he did *NOT* order his tank to go as far as it did when a zook popped it from the side. Can't recall who he player wah, might have been Henri, but anyhow at the time I thought he had to be fooling. Turns out it does happen every so often.

[Ron]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf:

The bug here is that a rotate at the end of the original sequence is changed to a move command. Try it out.<hr></blockquote>

Exactly what are the circumstances when this occurs for you? Personally I have used rotate at the end of a movement path countless times(read countless) and have never seen this occur.

The other situations, ie around impassable terrain or from a threat, are the TacAI in operation, hardly a bug.

Ron

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ron:

Exactly what are the circumstances when this occurs for you? Personally I have used rotate at the end of a movement path countless times(read countless) and have never seen this occur.

The other situations, ie around impassable terrain or from a threat, are the TacAI in operation, hardly a bug.

<hr></blockquote>

As I said, when the AI has to change one of your movement paths because your plot led through impassable terrain, and your path had a rotate at the end, then sometimes the rotate gets changed to a movement order. The vehicle will then continue to move to the point that you used to direct the rotate order, which for me is usually direct on top of a suspected enemy position.

I tried to reproduce this in an isolated situation, but plain tries fail. I still miss a part of the puzzle. I think I have a PBEM move that shows this bug, that that would require my opponent's password.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pak40:

I find it interesting that you you call the actions of a smart AI (a feature that we all complain is missing in most other games), a "bug".

The AI is taking things into it's own hands, for once. In other games such as Close Combat and various RTS games these units would be stuck or pace back and forth under the same circumstances. But in Combat Mission, the units are generally smart enough to plot a coarse around an obstacle or reverse out of a dangerous situation.

No bugs here, just smart AI.<hr></blockquote>

Well, in a current game I had 2 half tracks parked under trees, hiding from the 1st turn. My opponent's planes were circling overhead a few turns later but never spotted them until last turn when they both on their own reversed out of the trees only to get strafed when they moved into open view. Does this sound like smart AI to you?

[Simon Fox]

Ron,

What redwolf is talking about is a well known bug. In fact you don't even have to plot the move through the impassable terrain just too close to it and an end of move rotate order will turn into a move order. I understand that when the game sees your route goes too close or through impassable terrain it replots the route but in doing so it takes the end of the rotate order as the final way point.

As Pak40 points out what Deadmarsh is talking about is not a bug but a feature. If you stuff up your route, the game will try to plot a new one which may or may not be a good one.

Other than that if a vehicle is seriously overmatched the tacAI will try to get it out of trouble. Generally speaking I have been very happy with the results of that but expecting it to get it right all the time is unreasonable. There is no way realistically speaking that a vehicle crew would have the same situational awareness that the player has.

[Ron]

Interesting Simon, I will take your word for it. Being a hopelessly anal-retentive plotter I could never attempt to reproduce those circumstances and check it for myself.

Ron

Edit, forgot the smiley...

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Ron ]</p>

[JonS]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

...In fact you don't even have to plot the move through the impassable terrain just too close to it and an end of move rotate order will turn into a move order. I understand that when the game sees your route goes too close or through impassable terrain it replots the route but in doing so it takes the end of the rotate order as the final way point...<hr></blockquote>

Simon,

Is this what happened to your cromwell in our game?

[Simon Fox]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JonS:

Simon,

Is this what happened to your cromwell in our game?<hr></blockquote>Yup. I hunted along the treeline plotted to pull up just short of los to your JgDPz (having infantry skulking in the woods I knew where los was) and then plotted a rotate order to face your armour so that if you moved it fwd I could ambush it. Unfortunately the boundary of the treeline was not even and as it reached the end of its hunt order it suddenly accelerated and charged out into the open with predictable results

[Ligur]

Two days ago, I playing a defence battle. I was defending a village from incoming SS armor and mechanized infantry units.

At about round 10, all my supporting vehicles (like Jeeps) that were in the back of the village, parked outside heavy buildings and definetly out of sight, started moving around.

W3rd. They were not under threat. The enemy had shot some very random arty volleys during the round, but none fell inside 250m of my support vehicles. They all plotted 4 to 5 step, short moves, moving distances from 15 to 30 meters.

In the same battle a certain Engineer platoon tried to run to random positions several times. Never could figure out why.

Also one M8 Greyhound wanted to change its location by 100 meters at turn 11 using "fast" move, still can't figure out why.

Odd. Of course my armor, that was in contact with a heavy armored assault force, kept moving on reverse AND to the forward most of the time. Sometimes the TacAI wants to move a tank CLOSER to the enemy if you are "bunched up", there is smoke, the terrain is cramped (woods, buildings) etc. and will end up in a position not preferable. At least twice in the very same battle described above a Sherman decided to move a few meters forward, expose its flank from behind a building and get picked off from the side by a previously hidden AT team or armor unit. Well, I guess they try their best... =P

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ligur:

Two days ago, I playing a defence battle. I was defending a village from incoming SS armor and mechanized infantry units.

At about round 10, all my supporting vehicles (like Jeeps) that were in the back of the village, parked outside heavy buildings and definetly out of sight, started moving around.

W3rd. They were not under threat. The enemy had shot some very random arty volleys during the round, but none fell inside 250m of my support vehicles. They all plotted 4 to 5 step, short moves, moving distances from 15 to 30 meters.

In the same battle a certain Engineer platoon tried to run to random positions several times. Never could figure out why.

Also one M8 Greyhound wanted to change its location by 100 meters at turn 11 using "fast" move, still can't figure out why.

Odd. Of course my armor, that was in contact with a heavy armored assault force, kept moving on reverse AND to the forward most of the time. Sometimes the TacAI wants to move a tank CLOSER to the enemy if you are "bunched up", there is smoke, the terrain is cramped (woods, buildings) etc. and will end up in a position not preferable. At least twice in the very same battle described above a Sherman decided to move a few meters forward, expose its flank from behind a building and get picked off from the side by a previously hidden AT team or armor unit. Well, I guess they try their best... =P<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, this is very similar to what happened with me. I swear upon my CM instruction manual that I did not move those halftracks! They moved by themselves!

Now the question is...is this a feature or a bug? And if it's a feature, why the hell would they move out of scattered trees into a clearing to get shot up by planes overhead?

BTS, please answer as this is something us players need to know.

[ParaBellum]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

... and as the TD moved, the enemy half track then came into view and shot the TD, closely followed by a 2nd TD that missed and the half track killed it too<hr></blockquote>

That reminds me of a a certain PBEM I'm currently playing...

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ParaBellum:

That reminds me of a a certain PBEM I'm currently playing...

<hr></blockquote>

Me too.

However, it is just an underdeveloped algorithm, not a bug. Halftracks flee into the open, because that is usually the best thing to do (because they can flee faster in open ground or roads). No exceptions "but it doesn't make sensewen "..." seem to be in the code. That would be hard to do.

[Dirtweasle]

Parabellum was indeed the recipient of this folly of the dancing Tank Destroyer.

I gladly accept the very *very* infrequent occurnces of this oddity since the game has given me hours upon hours of challenges playing PBEM.

Now, if only I can even the score from this last PBEM game somehow...

[Pak40]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Well, in a current game I had 2 half tracks parked under trees, hiding from the 1st turn. My opponent's planes were circling overhead a few turns later but never spotted them until last turn when they both on their own reversed out of the trees only to get strafed when they moved into open view. Does this sound like smart AI to you?<hr></blockquote>

let me get this straight. You parked two halftracks in scattered trees the entire game? I'm assuming at some point in the game you actually used these halftracks, either moved them or they fired upon some enemy soldiers(otherwise, what's the point in getting the halftracks). If they did fire upon some enemy then that means that they were vulnerable to possible enemy units which may have cause them to move. Also, artillery would easily cause them to move, even a 50mm mortar.

As for the AI being 'smart' (or lack of) for bringing the halftacks out in the open, it was just bad luck. Your halftracks in the trees had limited visibility and a plausible explanation is that the crews thought the enemy planes had left the area. But when they get out in the open they are surprised to see the planes return. This is a totally realistic mistake that could have and did happen in WWII.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pak40:

let me get this straight. You parked two halftracks in scattered trees the entire game? I'm assuming at some point in the game you actually used these halftracks, either moved them or they fired upon some enemy soldiers(otherwise, what's the point in getting the halftracks). If they did fire upon some enemy then that means that they were vulnerable to possible enemy units which may have cause them to move. Also, artillery would easily cause them to move, even a 50mm mortar.

As for the AI being 'smart' (or lack of) for bringing the halftacks out in the open, it was just bad luck. Your halftracks in the trees had limited visibility and a plausible explanation is that the crews thought the enemy planes had left the area. But when they get out in the open they are surprised to see the planes return. This is a totally realistic mistake that could have and did happen in WWII.<hr></blockquote>

This was a canned scenario in which I'm on the defense. (Mick, you're not reading this are you?)

I had two halftracks in scattered trees and they were hiding from turn 1. Then, on turn 10, they both reversed out of the trees into open ground ironically just before his planes flew by. They were both immediately killed.

There was no arty in the area at the time to make the halftracks move. They simply did it on thier own. I had no intention of moving them until later in the game because of the way the defense is structured.

If my halftrack is adjusting its route for a better one, that is fine. This movement was started on its own and I wanted to know if anybody else had experienced this for themselves and it looks like one or two have.

The question still remains as to if this is a bug or if the vehicles were doing this on their own. The planes have been circling for about 3 turns now so if they moved because they thought they were in danger, why did they wait so long to do so? It's my opinion that this is a bug, not a feature.

[Pak40]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

The question still remains as to if this is a bug or if the vehicles were doing this on their own. The planes have been circling for about 3 turns now so if they moved because they thought they were in danger, why did they wait so long to do so? It's my opinion that this is a bug, not a feature.<hr></blockquote>

It's POSSIBLY a bug only if it happens every time. By this I mean we should test to see if halftracks back out of tree cover by themselves because planes are flying overhead. We can easily create a similar situation: a small map with some light trees and open space - pick halftracks for the US and planes for the germans (or vice-versa).

Run the scenario a few times and see if the halftracks move on their own every time. Then make the same scenario (only without the planes) - run this scenario several times and see if the halftracks move every time. We should be able to draw some conclusions from this test.

You think that it's a bug. I think that it's the program's fuzzy logic coding. The fuzzy logic adds a bit of randomness into the game to account for luck, environment, bad decisions being made by soldiers, etc...

This feature gives the game an unpredictability that is all to realistic, especially on battlfields.

The bottom line is that you're just PO'd because you lost two halftracks when they disobeyed your orders. The reality is that this happens all the time in battle - either bad decisions are made or orders are disobeyed or both.

I'd be disappointed in CM's AI if those halftracks stayed in those trees every time you replayed the scenario. It would mean that the fuzzy logic isn't working and the AI is predictable as any Doom clone game.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pak40:

It's POSSIBLY a bug only if it happens every time. By this I mean we should test to see if halftracks back out of tree cover by themselves because planes are flying overhead. We can easily create a similar situation: a small map with some light trees and open space - pick halftracks for the US and planes for the germans (or vice-versa).

Run the scenario a few times and see if the halftracks move on their own every time. Then make the same scenario (only without the planes) - run this scenario several times and see if the halftracks move every time. We should be able to draw some conclusions from this test.

You think that it's a bug. I think that it's the program's fuzzy logic coding. The fuzzy logic adds a bit of randomness into the game to account for luck, environment, bad decisions being made by soldiers, etc...

This feature gives the game an unpredictability that is all to realistic, especially on battlfields.

The bottom line is that you're just PO'd because you lost two halftracks when they disobeyed your orders. The reality is that this happens all the time in battle - either bad decisions are made or orders are disobeyed or both.

I'd be disappointed in CM's AI if those halftracks stayed in those trees every time you replayed the scenario. It would mean that the fuzzy logic isn't working and the AI is predictable as any Doom clone game.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, I'm not P.O'd. I'm just bored and wanted to post about something.

You're probably right about the fuzzy logic. I had totally forgotten about the random factor in this game. I keep thinking it only applies to armor penetration and stuff like that.

[Redwolf]

I don't see how it has to do with fuzzy logic.

If the halftracks are frightend in some place, they get the hell out of it. No special decision logic for airplanes has been coded, so they act the same no matter what the threat is.

There is randomness in their decision where exactly they decide to head, but that doesn't quality as fuzzy logic.