Yankees, thousands of them!

[Slyspy]

Well, maybe not thousands but definitely a great many. I'm looking for advice on tactics to counter massive rushes of low quality troops. My last quick battle (an attack) was an odd one. I chose a relatively balanced defensive force, mostly regular infantry with some support weapons, armour and arty. The AI on the other hans chose a force consisting entirely of green paratroops (with bazookas, MMG and a couple of arty spotters). Do you know how many green troops you can get for 2000 points?! My HMGs didn't really cut the mustard against so many. Any suggestions?

[FinnN]

Sounds like a job for flamethrowers or quad-20mm to me. It's a shame the HMGs don't sweep across multiple targets like they would in reality when attacked like that. Oh well nothing like a lick of flame to send green troops scattering!

Have fun

Finn

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slyspy:

Well, maybe not thousands but definitely a great many. I'm looking for advice on tactics to counter massive rushes of low quality troops. My last quick battle (an attack) was an odd one. I chose a relatively balanced defensive force, mostly regular infantry with some support weapons, armour and arty. The AI on the other hans chose a force consisting entirely of green paratroops (with bazookas, MMG and a couple of arty spotters). Do you know how many green troops you can get for 2000 points?! My HMGs didn't really cut the mustard against so many. Any suggestions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah that's a weakness that a lot of players feel about cm, the cheap inf rush.

best as i can figure is to have mmgs at far distance greater than 500m and don't tell them what to target(they would fire at that one guy even if they were running)

try and get flanking shots for the mmg

if you have a hill, try putting your guys on the reverse slope(the side of hill away from the enemy), which the ai can't handle well.

have inf some distance in front of the mmg

target the arty immediately, so you can have them firing quickly...your artillery can hide when firing, although it is less accurate and takes a little while longer

hth

[Guest Babra]

Mortars on target wide! They don't have to hit. A moderate miss will drive green troops to ground faster'n a miner through a whorehouse.

Never go into action without two or three spotters.

[Andrew H.]

What kind of arty did you get? I would assume (not really knowing any details of your forces) that you needed more -- maybe of smaller caliber. 81mm mortars are good for that.

The most relevant weakness of lower quality troops on the attack is that their morale is brittle, so a couple of casualties can make them panic or break. But you do need to cause the casualties in the first place, which can be difficult if you are substantially outnumbered. Hence the low caliber arty.

HMGs can be effective against lower quality troops, too, but IMO they are most effective at ~500 meters, where they can sometimes pin or slow green troops. This is not decisive of itself, of course, but it is often causes the attack to spread out (as some troops slow or are briefly pinned), which makes it easier to defeat the enemy in detail.

But don't underestimate green troops, either; they can be effective if used correctly.

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

But don't underestimate green troops, either; they can be effective if used correctly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just finished a game in which one of my green squads racked up 27 of the bad guys for the loss of 2. They don't always suck.

[chrisl]

Wire.

Minefields

MMGs (or MG42 if you're playing german)

Arty

Plus infantry to pick on the attackers after they get stuck on the wire or channeled by the minefields.

If you can put the wire where it won't be seen until the attackers already are on top of it then it's even better-- they'll get chopped up in the open on the wire. If they've just come through a minefield to get to the wire, they'll be even happier.

[Gen-x87]

Just drop some 81 mms on them. They will panic and run faster than the vikings did against the giants in the NFC champ game last year!

Gen

[Slyspy]

Cheers for the suggestions, especially those who gave tactical advice not help with troop selction. The real direction of the question was how to take out the green horde with a balanced force, not one designed specifically to fight the horde. I play random quick battles, so I never know exactly what I'll be fighting. I found that in this case there were simply too many enemy units for any counter-measure to have much effect. Nothing could do much damage before the huge amount of return fire suppressed them (I've never seen so many MMGs in CMBO before).

[JasonC]

"Do you know how many green troops you can get for 2000 points?! Any suggestions?"

First, get a piece of terrain. You want a reserve slope deployment of one kind or another, so that elements of the attacked come into view of the majority of your force, while other attackers further back can't see or provide "overwatch" fire. Backside of a ridge, beyond a woodline, interior of a village, whatever you use.

Second, establish a barrier in front of some part of the selected position, that depends on an *area effect* (AE for short). The primary choices are an AP minefield (~10 tiles worth, the cost of a platoon or an AFV, not 1-2. 1-2 won't do anything). Or TRPs plus light mortar FOs (and/or 75mm arty perhaps) - as the two most easily affordable means of getting an AE. AE matters because it multiplies the firepower when the number of enemies increases, instead of being diluted over several targets. And these types are also immune to enemy firepower, as off map or not living. A *shield* composed of a planned AE, forms the forward part of your main "block" position.

Directly behind the AE, place regular infantry in whole platoons. Do not spread out beyond command radius. The danger from arty is somewhat higher, but command and a group tight enough to provide multiple shooters, reliefs, etc, is essential for a "block" position. Some enemy can always get through an AP minefield, or a light mortar barrage. But take out an entire platoon position, they can rarely manage with the piecemeal forces that get through, simply by weight of numbers.

To the flanks and rear of the main block, position ranged fire anti-infantry weapons. HMGs (but not U.S. 50 cals - they don't have enough ammon), FLAK/AA, infantry guns or howitzers, the FOs. Spread in an arc, but able to see the "crest" of whatever reverse slope position you selected, or various bits and pieces of it. Their physical seperation protects them from enemy arty, and distance from most small arms fire. They should also "hide" until several of them they have good targets, then open up together.

Light mortars and some MGs (U.S. 50 cal, German LMG) do not have enough ammo to help significantly against hordes. A few light mortars can be useful, but for the ranged anti-infantry component of the force you need firepower times ammo load. Avoid the low ammo items, or too many of them, on the defense.

Keep a platoon of infantry in reserve somewhere, either behind the block or off to one side farther back. Use it to counterattack portions of the enemy force where they are already broken, to prevent rally, drive up causalties, and break global morale. Retreat afterward, do not attempt to hold ground or present too good an artillery target yourself.

Think of barrages - yours or his - plus AP mines, as "seperators" to allow retreat and lateral maneuver. Think of light barrages as temporary extensions of the minefields, that you can shut on or off, e.g. to allow a lane to sortie, and prevent entry the other way when necessary.

Save some sort of artillery, a full turn's blasting worth, late into the game for "final protective fire" directly ahead of your men. Do not blast empty areas, or waste all the artillery fire on the enemy still distant and approaching. Lighter artillery breaks rather than killing; its proper use is on enemy's in immediate contact, or to cut off units in immediate contact from help from troops farther back. Use heavier forms of artillery for killing fire, in quantity, on forces already located and halted by other arms.

Be prepared to abandon positions that come under heavy enough fire, from artillery or massed enemy getting too close. Do not stand if you will not hold. Break contact and withdraw-run to a new position, and do not monkey around doing it. Use split squads at set up to create additional foxholes, rejoining in the first few turns. Add positions in stone buildings to get more.

Expect to juggle units, leaving little on unthreatened avenues to move more to others. You will not defeat a heavy attack by standing still in front of it. Occasionally let the enemy "hit air", conceeding objectives or other pressed points, then dropping barrages on the position evacuated, or firing into them from 2-3 sides. Stay loose and unpredictable, especially against humans.

I hope this helps.

[Maximus]

Try the scenario "Tiger Trap". You will face a HORDE of French troops.

[Major Tom]

The best thing to breaking up mass infantry are on the field mortors. Artillery support takes 1-2 minutes to call in, and usually arive too late, unless you call it on your own positions! On the field mortors (ie individual ones on the battlefield) have no delay in their arrival time. You can use Company troops to spot for them.

The most effective, in both cost and firepower, are the British 2" mortors and the US 60mm mortors. You don't need much firepower to kill troops in the open, and their cheap cost results in great numbers to appear on the field. I have even killed dug-in artillery and AT positions with these small mortors. They are one of the most efficient weapons on the field.

[JasonC]

"best thing to breaking up mass infantry are on the field mortors." [sic]

No, they don't have the ammo or the blast. ~1/3rd of the rounds will hit near a target aimed at, and in less than 3 minutes they will be dry. On average, they will put down fewer men, than crew the firing mortars themselves. At dense targets, their own number. That will not stop attackers with odds.

Off map FOs are just as rapid with a TRP, and the delay even without one is pretty trivial - 1 turn if you can see the target. There is no reply, and an entire area is effectively denied.

A German 81mm FO gets 150 rounds each 19 blast for 71 points, which is 40 blast per point spent. A U.S. 81mm FO gets 200 rounds each 18 blast for 99 points, which is 36.4 blast per point spent. Brit 3" get 26 blast, 180 rounds, 40 per point spent.

A U.S. 60mm mortar costs 21 points and has 31 rounds each 9 blast, which is 13.3 per, or only 37% as much total firepower for the cost. A Brit 2 inch gets 18 shells each 7 blast, total 127, for 9 cost, which is 14 each. The U.S. 81mm gets 23x18 for 26 points, 16 overall per; the German 81 gets 23x19 for 27 points again 16 per.

The only exception is the British 3", which pays proportionally more for its higher blast per round (26 vs. 18-19, cost 36 vs 26-27), but then gets double the ammo thrown in for free (58 rounds HE), compared to all other light mortars. That yields about the same total blast per point as off-map mortars, 42. Incidentally, this is an obvious pricing (or ammo) anomoly (aka goof), a "perq" for taking the Brits.

Unless the extra accuracy produces dramatic, 3-fold increases in rounds near target, the rest of the on-map mortars are too expensive. Where that accuracy can make a difference is against point targets rather than mass ones, since full off-map mortar barrages would waste many shells firing against a single MG or towed gun.

Light on map mortars are reasonable weapons to suppress point targets for brief periods. More than that they really can't do.

[Warmaker]

By all means mortars and light artillery are quick efficient means of dealing with the masses. HMGs, though handicapped in CMBO are quite useful for the points still for the ammo capacity and firepower at a target point, esp. the HMG42 and U.S. Ma Deuce.

If you have veteran or better troops, here's a nice way to deal with those useless "rookie" troops. Make sure you have appropriate fire/cover and send in a platoon to engage in hand to hand combat/assault. Best for cities/towns/dense terrain. Your boys will be doing some fancy kung-fu fighting and send the inexperienced cowards running home to momma in Berlin/London/Washington after a few casualties are inflicted. Wait till you see what elite troops can do.

For the Germans, though a little pricey, the 150mm Field Gun can do wonders with its huge blast and can send whole platoons running home. The Hummel, though flimsy, does provide mobility. The same can be said with the Allies' Churchills and Sherman 105s to provide impressive, and fairly accurate gunfire. The German 150mm's though provide that extra, expensive, yet satisfying boom.

"There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!"

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Warmaker]

Oops.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

Try the scenario "Tiger Trap".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. You mean people actually play my scenarios? Who woulda thunk it? I even got an email yesterday complementing me on my Crossroads scenario. Two in one day! I'm on a roll!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You will face a HORDE of French troops.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Genghis Khan not included.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the 150mm Field Gun can do wonders with its huge blast and can send whole platoons running home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but this unit usually won't last very long. And for ~the same points you can get 3 81mm mortars and an LMG or a VG SMG platoon or an 81mm spotter or a pair if 75mm FOs. All of which will usually contribute much longer and have more of an impact on a given battle than the fragile Infantry gun.

Although an Inf gun sitting down in a valley away from the enemy's overwatching units can be quite effective slaughtering his troops as they come over and down the hill. Of course, that's very terrain dependent. And with a limited FOV, he might not even get the chance to kill many enemy units. But they're still fun to play with anyway.

- Chris

[MrSpkr]

I find crack troops with SMG's works particularly well against this sort of tactic.

I am in a PBEM now with a guy who has a bunch of regular American Airborne troops. I rushed him (through artillery fire) with my (outnumbered) crack troops - destroyed one platoon in a single turn.

Then ran a crack platoon up against an entrenched regular platoon under cover of woods. ALthough he waxed nearly all of that platoon, none of my men ran, and the one survivor of my initial advance has continued to keep the fire up and is solely responsible for breaking/panicking (I'm not sure which, yet) an American squad and a Platoon HQ and for occupying the fire of yet another squad, allowing my reserve platoon to advance to contact nearly unopposed. Give that man a medal, preferably Iron Cross First Class.

Quality with the right weapons will defeat quantity in this game.

MrSpkr