PC vs. Console question for the technically inclined..

[The Commissar]

One of my favorite online gaming websites, ign, had an article about the X-Box stats in it's PC section, which I normally check out.

So I took a look at the stats of this new console (which is supposedly several times more powerful then the PS2 currently out), and to my amazement, the thing only has something like a 300MHz Processor, with some 64mg's of RAM! This leads me to conclude that the ridiculously spectacular graphics produced by this next gen console is all thanks to its video card.

Which, in turn, leads me to ask "Why the HELL can't they get a video card like that for the PC?!"

Im assuming they would need to change it to work for the PC and all, but I dont see much else stopping them from doing so. Even if the card was sold for $400, I'd gladly save up the cash to buy it if it meant such amazing visual treats!

Someone care to explain to me why this'll never happen?

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Black Five]

The dedicated game machines have the edge in that they are built for one thing, games. This enables the builders of machines and programmers to custom build all of the hardware to just play games.

An analogy that might help:

Think of a PC as a full service mechanics station. It has everything from socket wrenches and lifts to paint booths and gas pumps.

A console, like the X-Box or PS2 has only the tools that it needs to play games. This enables the hardware to be much faster and the code to be very tight

Hope this helps.

[Chupacabra]

The card powering the Xbox is Nvidia's next-generation card, called the nv25 or something like that. It, or something similar to it, will be coming out for the PC.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Dogface]

a cut and paste from nvidias web site

(makers of the x-box vid chipsets)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The Xbox Graphics Processing Unit (XGPU): Based on NVIDIA's next-generation core architecture, the 250 MHz XGPU will

process more than 125 million polygons per second, 4 gigapixels per second, and a total of 1 trillion operations per second,

delivering unsurpassed graphics performance in a <u>video game console</u>. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so it sounds like the video is just the next step up (i.e one sep upo from the geforce 256 or what ever its called) in the video card evolution and since the x-box aint commin out for a while the grafix should be reachable on a pc just as soon.

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Berlin calling, Berlin calling,

when Berlin calls it pays to listen.....

[This message has been edited by Dogface (edited 01-13-2001).]

[The Commissar]

Thanks for the quick responces, guys.

I never thought that just because the PC can do more then a console it can't be as good graphic wise with a good chipset. Oh well, the hell do I know?

Im glad that the card will be reaching the PC, however, even if it doesnt have the effect it does on the X-box, by the time this console hits the shelves we'll be playing CM on 2.5Ghz machines

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 01-13-2001).]

[Berlichtingen]

the thing only has something like a 300MHz Processor

Unless you are comparing like processors, MHz is meaningless.

[Mr. Clark]

Just some interesting clips from PS2 articles:

From an article about PS2 export problems w/ Japan-

"The graphics chip, developed specially for the PS2, runs at an astronomically high 6.5 Gigaflops (floating point operations per second, a measurement used to gauge the power microprocessors), while today’s most powerful home computers only run at around 105 Megaflops. Obviously, this is a huge advancement, allowing PS2 to whoop ass in the graphics department. "

From an article about PS2 export problems to Iraq-

"Most Americans don't realize that each PlayStation unit contains a 32-bit CPU [i.e. the I/O processor] -- every bit as powerful as the processor found in most desktop and laptop computers," said one military intelligence officer. "Beyond that, the graphics capabilities of a PlayStation are staggering -- five times more powerful than that of a typical graphics workstation, and roughly 15 times more powerful than the graphics cards found in most PCs."

Snips taken from www.ps2.ign.com and www.playstationcenter.com NEWS Articles.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 01-13-2001).]

[The Commissar]

The proccessors are completely different too then, huh? So what would a 300MHz on a console equal in computer terms? 5Ghz? With those graphics and smooth frame rate, it's not out of the question...

[Mr. Clark]

Finally, I HAVE to post links to these two screenshots of an upcoming PS2 wargame called Kessen 2. It features SHOGUN style mass battles, w/ japanese wizards thrown in.

These are two screenshots from actual battle (zoomed in)

Supposedly, up to 500 troops will be able to appear onscreen at one time...

EDIT: AAARGH! Screen links not working!

Here's the full article: http://ps2.ign.com/previews/15355.html

Page waaaaaay down and check out the BATTLE FOR A BRIDGE pic!

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 01-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 01-14-2001).]

[The Commissar]

In my ongoing debates with my pro-console buddies, Im running out of ammunition. Console games which produce images like that screenshot right there is what keeps draining it up.

Wow...this is what I see "CMII" becoming someday (I know Charles would rather hang himself then try to produce such graphics working by his lonesome). Thank goodness that no matter how flashy they become, consoles are still brainless fighting/platform/interactive movie games. Kessen is not very strategic I heard, just cinimatic. Very little actual tactics involved.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Mr. Clark]

Yes, I would not recommend buying a console unless you like First Person Shooters, Racing Games, Fighting Games, or Platform games. (I do! I use my PC for strategy games.)

However... the upcoming run on PS2 games is pushing the limits in all catagories... ie, First Person Shooters with roleplaying and tactics, etc. The upcomgin World Is Not Enough (Bond! YAAAAY!) game is a First Person Shooter... however, you can supposedly solve thegame w/o firing a shot, due to the "stealth" engine. Also, every background object can supposedly be interacted with. Thus, like Bond in the movies, you are supposed to be able to get out of sticky situations by making good use of objects around you. (Like rolling steel drums at baddies, Tying a rope to a table and then using it to "bungie" jump out a window, etc.)

[Skott Karlsson]

Televisions have a different resolution too than a CRT. The CRT's have a more detailed pixel resolution but it takes a hefty video card to get that gorgeous graphic representation. And as someone already pointed out. Consoles do one thing and one thing only. Play games. Although thats changing with the internet connections the console machines will start allowing. PCs and console machines are two entirely two different beasts and the lines are starting to merge. Personally, I still prefer a PC for my gaming.

~Skott~

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

and to my amazement, the thing only has something like a 300MHz Processor, with some 64mg's of RAM! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Way off. The X-Box's processor is a 733 MHz Pentium III.

Chup is correct. You'll be able to buy the same graphics card for your computer.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Most Americans don't realize that each PlayStation unit contains a 32-bit CPU [i.e. the I/O processor] -- every bit as powerful as the processor found in most desktop and laptop computers," said one military intelligence officer. "Beyond that, the graphics capabilities of a PlayStation are staggering -- five times more powerful than that of a typical graphics workstation, and roughly 15 times more powerful than the graphics cards found in most PCs." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it may be true that the PS2s processors are theoretically capable of these numbers, its real world performance is much lower. The culprit is its 4-meg frame buffer. Its a major system bottleneck. Think of a computer with a 1 GHz processor and a 4 megabyte video card and you'll get the idea.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[Mr. Clark]

That's not ENTIRELY true...

The 4MB used to be a large complaint, until developers realized they could pass over 1 gig (possibly 3! Can't remember exact number) of textures through it in a second.

Basically, it's supposed to be like having an open window on all the texture mem you want.

[Mr. Clark]

OOPS! I was way off, looks like it's more like 48 gigs a second passing through that 4mb vid mem.

CPU: 128 Bit "Emotion Engine"

System Clock: 300 MHz

System Memory: 32 MB Direct Rambus

Memory Bus Bandwidth: 3.2 GB per second

Co-Processor: FPU (Floating Point Multiply Accumulator x 1, Floating Point Divider x 1)

Vector Units: VU0 and VU1 (Floating Point Multiply Accumulator x 9, Floating Point Divider x 1)

Floating Point Performance: 6.2 GFLOPS

3D CG Geometric Transformation: 66 million Polygons Per Second

Compressed Image Decoder: MPEG2

Graphics: "Graphics Synthesizer"

Clock Frequency: 150MHz

DRAM Bus bandwidth: 48 GB Per Second

DRAM Bus width: 2560 bits

Pixel Configuration: RGB:Alpha:Z Buffer (24:8:32)

Maximum Polygon Rate: 75 Million Polygons Per Second

Sound: "SPU2+CPU"

Number of voices: ADPCM: 48 channel on SPU2 plus definable by software

Sampling Frequency: 44.1 KHz or 48 KHz (selectable)

I/O Processor

THESE LAST STATS are for the Playstation 1 system built in, so you can run PS1 games:

CPU Core: Current PlayStation CPU

Clock Frequency: 33.8 MHz or 37.5 MHz (selectable)

Sub Bus: 32 Bit

Interface Types: IEEE1394, Universal Serial Bus (USB)

Communication via PC-Card PCMCIA

Disc Media: DVD-ROM (CD-ROM compatible)

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 01-14-2001).]

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

OOPS! I was way off, looks like it's more like 48 gigs a second passing through that 4mb vid mem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, it's theoretical. The real world numbers are not quite the same.

Will the PS2's insane bandwidth save it?

Since the details aren't clear, it's hard to make a definite call but we suspect the answer is "no." The PS2 has a 2560-bit interface to the embedded DRAM at 150MHz. This equals a total of 48 GB/s, and yes, it is an incredible amount of bandwidth. However, only 512-bits are available for texture lookups which leaves 9.6 GB/s. The GeForce2 GTS has 166MHz DDR on a 128-bit interface which equals 5.312 GB/s.

The difference is that PS2 has to provide texture information for 16 pixels each clock cycle whereas the GTS only needs to provide texture information for 4 pixels. So, for each pixel, the GTS has 1328 MB/s of bandwidth whereas the PS2 only has 600 MB/s of bandwidth for retrieving textures. The Dreamcast has 800MB/s for each pixel. If you factor in texture compression, you need to multiply the Dreamcast's and GTS's numbers by 4. In other words, although there is more total bandwidth for the PS2, it also needs more bandwidth to reach its theoretical maximum because of its massively parallel design.

Granted, once the textures information has been provided, there is 2048-bits of read/write bandwidth for the frame buffer giving 38.4 GB/s of bandwidth. Unfortunately, there are still two lingering concerns. 16-pixel pipelines instead could ruin efficiency. Conventional 3D chips render one polygon at a time.

If you have a 1x1 polygon, then only 1 pixel pipeline could be used and 15 will sit idle, just wasting throughput. The GeForce, for example, has its four pixel pipelines in a 2x2 array. At the corners of polygons, the four pixel pipelines are rarely all used. The only way around this would be for Sony to use something completely different from PC graphics chips and "unhook" the pixel pipelines, but there is nothing to suggest that this has been done. Smaller polygons will result in poorer performance.

Unfortunately, the use of a lot of small polygons is exactly what the Emotion Engine affords. In addition, texture bandwidth is likely to be extremely important because the PS2 only has 4MB of embedded DRAM.

Here's part of a CNET article.

"The PS2 is an absolute, positive bear to program," said Michael Goodman, senior analyst at The Yankee Group. "Sony is not exactly known for having the greatest developer relations. They sort of have a 'take it or leave it' attitude. When you have 60-some percent market share, you can get away with that to some extent."

The 32MB of general memory and 4MB of graphics memory in the PS2 is rigidly allocated to various functions, which could frustrate developers of graphics-intensive titles who wanted to devote more resources to image rendering. Xbox developers are free to dole out the console's 64MB of memory however they see fit.

Note that I'm not against the PS2 or for the X-Box. In fact, if I buy a console it will likely be a PS2 because:

a. I buy consoles based on which one has the games I want to play, not which has the best spec sheet. And I am a big Gran Turismo fan (at least of the first one).

b. I think an X-Box would be a redundant waste of money for someone who already has a good PC. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it now.

I guess my feelings on the PS2s power are best summed up by John Carmack:

"PS2 is...a straightforward evolutionary step in power, not the "unprecedented leap forward" that it was billed (and perceived) as. People generally realize that now."

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 01-15-2001).]

[mensch]

the difference between console and pcs and macs is you can buy a cheezy game like 3D pacman to keep your wife all busy while you play CM on your computer. Remember when she says "hey this is hard" or "isn't he cute" to say "yes dear, try using button combos" and "yea.. fat little bugger, I bet he has colesterol problems"

Fall back is you may have to take a break from CM to show her how to get by a bad guy or show her a manouver she can and will never accomplish. This takes about five to ten minute of your time but its better then the hours on end she can chew up on questions about house work that you have not done or about other trivial things like shoe sales or when are we visiting her mothers soon (since shes playing the game she forgets those things).

that my sir is the difference between console and computer games.

[KiloIndiaAlpha]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

the thing only has something like a 300MHz Processor

Unless you are comparing like processors, MHz is meaningless.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right. I think it's a 64 bit processor, and Pentiums etc are 32 bit

[Bruno Weiss]

Remember when Sony tried to tell everyone the "Walkman" would fit into a shirt pocket. It didn't ofcourse, so they went out had a special "larger" pocket shirt designed for all their salesmen. From what I've read, this is all something of a stampede of corporate execs who know little about gaming, only quick profits (BTS Manifesto is right on target), and Sony has convinced them that "their" console will take over PC gaming, without any good evidence that infact that will happen. Wonder how they'll fit a console into a shirt pocket?

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-15-2001).]

[Jeff Heidman]

My understanding is that console makes for great action/arcade type game machines. They push a lot of polygons are relatively lowe resolutions (compared to a PC monitor a TV is very low resolution).

They have trouble replicating spohisitcated logic however, since the chips are usually totally specialized for high speed graphics.

The thing with the XBox is that it is always easy to talk about how powerful something is gong to be that is not going to be released for at least another year.

I will not be selling my PC anytime soon. I enjoy playing Madden 2001 on a PS, but I have yet to see any kind of real depth in a console game. Let me know when someone releases Combat Missions, TOAW, SPWAW, Falcon 4.0, European Air War, or Baldurs Gate II for the PlayStation. Then I will think about it.

Jeff Heidman

[Bruno Weiss]

Ooo, you an airdale too? Hehe, yep. Just can't take EAW off me machine. I still fly RB3D also. With all the player mods that have come out, their both brand new games compared to their original release. When they came out, I had a lower end machine and had FPS troubles. With the newer processors and cards, I can now fly them the way their were meant to be. Never tried Falcon 4.0 though, but most everyone I know has praised it.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Mr. Clark]

Hey Jeff, get ready to buy a PS2!

"Rumors have started circulating that Interplay is planning on bringing their smash hit PC title, Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn to the PS2. Not much else is know about the title, although it has been suggested that the game will be a total revamp rather than a direct port. Watch this space!"

I find it funny that the guy at FIRING (Flaming) SQUAD goes on and on for 4 pages, and then ends with:

"With the bandwidth and pixel-pipeline limitations of the Graphics Synthesizer, it's very possible that the PS2 performance has been overestimated. Only time will tell. The big-budget PS2 titles such as Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec, Final Fantasy X, and Metal Gear Solid 2 won't be out until next year. "

Basically saying he knows nothing and has been wasting your time for the past four pages.

Carmack is a chump. Major console programmers jumped all over his case when he stated that the PS2 was too hard to program for. The World Is Not Enough team is using the quake 3 engine for the PS2 and PC game...

"Oh, and did we mention that the title will feature twice the graphic detail of the PC version, and run at a constant 60 frames per second with little or NO slowdown? Please, don't cry PC owners."

Yet Carmack stated that his engine would be LESS powerful on a PS2!

It's easy for doubters with their own websites to talk "real world numbers" while sitting on their duffs with a beer. We could argue back and forth all day, but it's an argument that has gone on since consoles and PC's began competing for the game market. I know that the screenshots I've seen for upcoming PS2 games are beyond ANYTHING I've ever seen on a PC. I know that my copy of DOA2:Hardcore looks better than anything I've seen on my friends super PC's.

Those are the only "real world" stats I need.

I also know that console games are not for everyone. I enjoy both PC and console games.

I refuse to have the "PC games are for brainiacs" bias against consoles, because I love spending some brainless time shooting things up now and then.

Finally, I'd never buy an XBOX either, because I agree it's NOT going to be a console system... just another PC which will require upgrading every 3 months. Hell, they have just announced it will NOT be DVD capable out of the box, but will require you to buy an expensive side option if you want to watch DVD's on the thing...

Way to go Microsoft!

Basically, it's a worthless argument we have going here... all I can say is that if you LIKE console games, Mr. Clark HIGHLY recommends a PS2.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 01-15-2001).]

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Clark:

Hey Jeff, get ready to buy a PS2!

"Rumors have started circulating that Interplay is planning on bringing their smash hit PC title, Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn to the PS2. Not much else is know about the title, although it has been suggested that the game will be a total revamp rather than a direct port. Watch this space!"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We'll see. I am guessing that the reason it wont be a direct port is that they are not capable of reproducing the interface using just a game pad, or that they are unable to encode any significant logic.

And my stipulation was for more than one game. I can play Falcon 4.0, Madden 2001, BG2, and CM on my PC. So far, assuming BG2 for the console is woth the trouble, I can play 2 of those on a PS2. Some day. Maybe.

Jeff Heidman

[aka_tom_w]

ok

Check this out

http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/tgs2000/video/kessen2_101.mov

Somebody want to give me a REAL time Fully rendered polygon count here?

THis PS2 Does Render real time graphics and a huge number of polygons VERY Fast!!!

The movie is VERY nice for a game.

(but sadly it does not have Tanks in it)

-tom w

[Comstr]

Here's the big question- would CM work on a console?

User wise, yes. If people can play RTS games the ease of use of the CM engine would be simple to use. Whether a console player could be bothered to play is another question (mabye if they dumped the real world vechiles and put in SF/Fantasy units you could. What the hell is a Sherman SHSS for anyway?).

Program wise? The big thing MS is pushing is that it'll be VERY easy for PC games to port to it (though it's what 20Meg Hard Drive won't be much use, apart from patching. You won't see Deus Ex on there anytime soon). And no way could it handle Falcon 4's patching! But my guess it'll work with all PC addone's, like Force Feedback Joysticks and keyboards and such (once MS makes them for thier own special USB port that gee, no one else can use).

Mabye CM IV will run on it. (Persoanlly I hope not. If MS sees how good this game is, the'll buy it and make it so it's exclusive to the xbox. Budgie anyone?)