Do you all have 50Mhz 486 PC or something?

[Panzer76]

Ok, when reading various posts about what the 3d engine can or cannot do, it seems that often people say that this and that can't be modeled because of the hardware constraints.

It seems to me that people on this message board have below average PCs at home. I for one would like to see more graphical detail in the game. The thing is I'm afraid BTS is maybe trying to hard to make the game playable for people with ancient PC with the consequence that the game doesn't look as good as it could for the rest of us.

Do you see my point? I don't want to have to settle with worse graphics just because some people insist CM shoould be playable on an 4 year old machine. Sorry, but then its really about time to get a new machine!

This is especially a topic when BTS is gonna revamp the whole gfx engine in CM3.

Bottom line is, IF this degrades the look of the game, BTS shouldn't care if some people with old machines can play the game or not. Take advantage of what a modern PC can do instead of trying to please everybody. If ofcource the 3d engine is constructed in such a fashion that it accomedates different levels of hardware on the users machine, it's all good.

Im not saying that u should have a 1 GHz machine with GeForce 3, but, atleast a PIII/Celeron/AMD 400 with 8/16 MB gfx card.

So what kind of machine do YOU have? I myself have a 1.2 Ghz AMD with a GeForce2-MX 64MB gfx card.

Panzer

[Stalin's Organ]

500 MHz P-3, 128Mb RAM, 32 Mb NVidia TNT2 Graphics.

and it's not going to get replaced for at least a couple more years yet!

[lcm1947]

I now have as of a month ago a 850 Pentium, with a rather old 32M Diamond viper 770 video card.

[The Commissar]

I agree with you, Panzer76. However, many people on this board have only average PC's. By the time CMII, the graphic rewrite comes along, many may still have the same machines they have today.

If you're new to wargaming, as I was when I first came here, you're probably amazed at how these people can go without any upgrades for years on end. It's important to realise that the people playing CM are not hard core gamers. At least most of them are not. Since they arent game junkies, they dont squeeze every extra penny into upgrading their machine like I did and still do on occasion. Many people here are computer laymen, quite content with an aging machine because besides CM and 2d wargames that dont require much computing power, they dont play other games.

Also, most people here aren't computer whiz-kids or do not know anyone who is. Thus, unlike me and many other gamers, they pass by on gradualy updating one's machine piece by piece. They buy entire packages because its a no hassle deal. Hell, many of the people here probably have the PC on a 4 year payment plan, and don't plan on a new one until that plan wears out.

Quite frankly, for the engine rewrite, I myself would like to see a minimum 800Mhz requirment. We're looking at years from now, and personally I feel by then, an 800Mhz processor would cost you as much as a used tie. Did I mention that some people here are cheap and bite your head of for mentioning it? Well now I did *ducks to avoid flame thrower burst*

EDIT: Forgot to add my machine is as follows:

AMD 1Ghz, 256RAM, 30Gig HD, NVIDIA TNT2 Pro powered. I plan on upgrading some parts too. pricewatch.com is a god send!

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

[Panzer Leader]

CM2, otherwise known as CM:BB, due out late this year will feature a minimum 8mb graphics card with a reccomended of 16. That's not too shabby I guess.

Of course, I too can handle the big stuff, but even this game can tax my system on the huge games. I have had turns take almost a full minute to process, and that's with an Athlon 900!

[Pvt. Ryan]

Looks like Maximus changed his handle again.

[YankeeDog]

Well. . . since you want to know, I am running CMBO on a 400mhz P-II, 128MB RAM, 32MB Kyro Chipset 3D card. The core system is a little over three years old. The 3D card is a fairly recent upgrade.

As for performance, I have no problems at 800x600 resolution. I can run at 1024x768, but things sometimes get a little jerky on really wide views of large battles. I've never timed it, but I also don't feel like I have to sit around forever waiting for turns to process. I'm still pretty new to the game, though, so I haven't started installing all sorts of high-res mods yet. . .

A little side note in case anyone is reading this who is thinking of upgrading to a Kyro chipset card - as some of the rest of you may have experienced, the Kyro chipset can cause some problems with CMBO, but as long as you're comfortable messing around in regedit, there's a very workable fix in the technical support forum.

I for one hope that BTS continues to up the graphical bar for the game, and I will upgrade to better hardware when the need arises. If someday in the future CM3 requires a 64MB 3D card with a 2GHz chip, I'll be there. I have a fantasy in my mind of what this would look like, and it's definitely worth a few overtime shifts at work to afford it.

I understand BTS's desire to keep the game accessible to those who can't afford/don't want to upgrade their systems, tho. I guess it's all a balancing act.

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: YankeeDog ]

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer76:

Im not saying that u should have a 1 GHz machine with GeForce 3, but, atleast a PIII/Celeron/AMD 400 with 8/16 MB gfx card.

So what kind of machine do YOU have? I myself have a 1.2 Ghz AMD with a GeForce2-MX 64MB gfx card.

Panzer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Panzer, I'm running a - hold on let me check - well, sure enough, it's smaller than yours. It's a PC of some kind that I think I've been wrenching for a year and a halfnow. It runs CM and a bunch of other stuff just dandily, and without knowing anything about you I'm still willing to bet that I can pony up enough dough as an afterthought tomorrow to buy a system that would blow yours into geosynchronous orbit.

The beauty of CM is that I don't have to do that, and the further beauty of CM2 is that I still won't have to do that. BTS has chosen, deliberately chosen mind you, to aim for the middle and pick up lots of the bottom. This approach does not exclude the top, and therefore gets BTS more customers, and more satisfied ones at that - the high-end hogs (and I've been one) are far fewer to begin with, and the high-end hogs who will flatly refuse to buy a game simply because it doesn't tax their system and justify their expenditures are fewer still.

And even more bottom line than that is who the heck are you to tell anyone what system they "should" have? That kind of arrogance still astonishes me even though I see it often enough.

Sheesh.

-dale

[Michael Emrys]

I'm with dale all the way on this one.

Michael

[Priest]

Panzer it is called MODS!

Get some!

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem:

Hey Panzer, I'm running a - hold on let me check - well, sure enough, it's smaller than yours. (...) and without knowing anything about you I'm still willing to bet that I can pony up enough dough as an afterthought tomorrow to buy a system that would blow yours into geosynchronous orbit.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good for you...

I bet I'm stronger than you....

Your missing the point, it's not about having the best PC.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem:

The beauty of CM is that I don't have to do that, and the further beauty of CM2 is that I still won't have to do that. BTS has chosen, deliberately chosen mind you, to aim for the middle and pick up lots of the bottom. This approach does not exclude the top, and therefore gets BTS more customers, and more satisfied ones at that - the high-end hogs (and I've been one) are far fewer to begin with, and the high-end hogs who will flatly refuse to buy a game simply because it doesn't tax their system and justify their expenditures are fewer still.

And even more bottom line than that is who the heck are you to tell anyone what system they "should" have? That kind of arrogance still astonishes me even though I see it often enough.

Sheesh.

-dale<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You assume a lot. First of, either I'm having a very difficult time expressing my self or you don't want to see my point.

1. I'm just saying that BTS shouldn't get HAMPERED developing CM3, trying to accomedate people with lousy machines.

2. If the 3d engine can scale up/down according to client machine, SUPER! Everybody is happy. But I don't think anybody who owns a 200 Mhz machine should be angry if he finds out that he can't run CM3 on it!

3. I guess there are very few people who whould refuse to buy a game just becuase it doesn't tax their PC. I certainly don't do that!

IF, as i said, that BTS developes a game that will run just fine on a wide degree of machines, WITHOUT setting restrictions on their development, that would be great. But they shouldn't (in my opinion of course) try to accomadate low end machines, if, and I say IF, it's seriously affecting how the game could have been for the rest of us (mid range-top end). Then it's just holding the development of the game back, and we wouldn't like that, now would we?

BTW: Just because it stands "Junior Member" next to my handle, it doesn't mean I'm new to this forum.

Panzer

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

Panzer it is called MODS!

Get some!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not only that, it's also the DEVELOPMENT of the new engine.

Panzer

[Shatter]

Pentium 4 1.7 Ghz

256 MB Ram

Vodoo 5500 AGP Video Card

Second PC

Pentium 3 877 Mhz

128 MB Ram

Vodoo 5500 PCI Video Card

I am one of the lucky individuals in this world who was left a somewhat sizeable inherentance from my Grandparents. As time goes on I see more and more people who do not have the means to give their children and themselves the things they want. Not everyone can afford a top of the line PC or do not want to go through the hassle of updating their PC.

I am a student in College who already has a degree in PC networking and in 2 more weeks, a degree in electronics. I have an PC that is 2 years old, but I got tired of updating it. So last month I went out and bought a new PC that I will not have to update at least for a year, maybe 2.

I for one think it is great that BTS thinks about the gamers who cannot afford a top of the line PC.I do have a lot of games mostly WWII related, but a lot of us here to not play the FPS and super graphics games. I also believe CM is the greatest game ever, even though it may not be the best graphics game out there. All I can say is I have over 40 games and none before CM have stayed on my HD for year and half now. Let alone burn 2 backup copies for myself, out fear of being with out. Nor have I stay on a message board for this amount of time even though I had to change handles and e-mail address because a member was sending me viruses. I like this board and all the members (well for the most part). The members here have loads of useful info about many things of importance to CM and WWII.

You also should watch your strong oppionions on the board. A lot us here do not take kindly to newbie coming here a voicing his oppinion about our beloved CM and the GREAT individuals who developed it.

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shatter:

I for one think it is great that BTS thinks about the gamers who cannot afford a top of the line PC.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shatter:

You also should watch your strong oppionions on the board. A lot us here do not take kindly to newbie coming here a voicing his oppinion about our beloved CM and the GREAT individuals who developed it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't anybody READ my posts?!

And, I'm not a newbie.

Yes, CM is great, the people who developed it are great, however, its NOT the point.

Panzer

[Scipio]

Well, only cause you asked for it:

1 GHz Athlon Thunderbird

512 MB RAM

64 MB Asus V7700 Geforce2 GTS

I build the system on my own. Yes, I'm a hardware slut.

But if you think this is a big caliber: I made a scenario, just to proof the look of mods, so I have one piece of each unit on it.

Once i hit the GO! button to see what happen, and it took about 5 mins to calculate the turn. I won't know how long it had lasted on an older machine. Okay, the movie then runs straight - I've heart some people has problems in big scenarios. But I fear that's not an hardwareproblem, it could be a problem of the CM graphic engine (I don't know which one they use, I assume an own). Well...what was the point? I've forgotten it.

[Shatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer76:

Originally posted by Shatter:

I for one think it is great that BTS thinks about the gamers who cannot afford a top of the line PC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Panzer76:

Me too!

-------------------------------------

Originally posted by Panzer76:

I don't want to have to settle with worse graphics just because some people insist CM shoould be playable on an 4 year old machine. Sorry, but then its really about time to get a new machine!

Panzer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

---------------------------------------------

I guess I misinterpreted your statement,

about getting a new machine with the Exclamation at the end.

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shatter:

---------------------------------------------

I guess I misinterpreted your statement,

about getting a new machine with the Exclamation at the end.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets put this in context shall we?

It's great that BTS is thinking about low end machines also when they are developing a game. And, as long this doesn't DEGRADE the game for the rest of us (with mid-top line) it's just dandy.

But, if BTS designs CM3 with 200-300 Mhz machines in mind, and therefore DEGRATES, and are therefor unable to make the game as good as it could have (for again, the mid-top end) been, then, and only then, IF so is the case, I think BTS should scrap support for low end machines, ok?!

You can disagree with me, or agree with me, but please do it on the basis of the point I'm trying to make! (And not doing a very good job, it seems )

Panzer

[Thomm]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer76:

I for one would like to see more graphical detail in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, so where are your suggestions?

Hint: This thread should have most of them:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015600-7.html

Regards,

Thomm

[Nick Panzer]

With a 1.1Ghz, 256 ram, and 64mb G-2 the porn loads up in a snap! Oh, CM.......it works great for that too.

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollstoy:

Okay, so where are your suggestions?

Hint: This thread should have most of them:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015600-7.html

Regards,

Thomm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, lot of good sugestions. I don't have any specific suggestions like "real time lighting" and so forth, but the main goal of the game, when it comes to grapichs, must be that it looks as close to real life that is possible. Of cource, the hardware aviable to the user must be taken into account. It's no use looking real good if only 5 % can play it. The average machine should be able to cope with it. But's that what I'm wondering about, what is the average machine of the people who play it?? Unitll now it seems that its around 800-900.

Panzer

[Priest]

Panzer to be serious I think the only thing that "suffered" in CMBO due to accomodating lower end machines was the graphics. Any other permutations and such that can be handled by PC's seems to have been done. Many of the non-graphical issues brought up to BTS involved situations were the solution would have required processor power that none of us have access to. Hence my MODS comment because that is all you are missing in CMBO and CMBB.

As far as the CMII engine is concerned, I believe it is way too early to be concerned with PC requirements when the BTS gang does not have a clear picture of what they are going to try to implement. Will the CMII engined games require more from a PC? Probably. Will it require a better graphics card? Again probably. But as we do not know about the engine yet (the soon to be creators do not know about it yet!!!) then we can pretty much end this discussion. Anyways there is a good chance that by the time the CMII engined games come out your PC will be one of those that you are now labeling as obsolete.

BTS has many strengths, but the ability to balance between two extremes is probably their key ability in the design of their games.

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

As far as the CMII engine is concerned, I believe it is way too early to be concerned with PC requirements when the BTS gang does not have a clear picture of what they are going to try to implement. (...) But as we do not know about the engine yet (the soon to be creators do not know about it yet!!!) then we can pretty much end this discussion. Anyways there is a good chance that by the time the CMII engined games come out your PC will be one of those that you are now labeling as obsolete.

BTS has many strengths, but the ability to balance between two extremes is probably their key ability in the design of their games.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, if even BTS doesn't know what they will include and so forth it's still to early with a discussion like this, I agree. I only hope they don't aim too low though (just look at the Mhz of the machines from the few who have responed), but since they are such a competent crew, I'm sure they won't.

If my PC is obsolete by then, fine, I'm not going to make a fuss about it.

Panzer

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1. I'm just saying that BTS shouldn't get HAMPERED developing CM3, trying to accomedate people with lousy machines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that's the problem. I think they should. I believe BTS feels the same way.

Of course, what's a lousy machine is debatable. I agree 50Mhz 486 should be out, but that's not what you meant, is it now? Buying a new machine every second year should be out too.

I have a Mac 8600/250Mhz, I borrowed it from work last year, a bit over 200MB's of RAM.

It's .. umm.. I don't remember how old, from -97 maybe? I've upgraded the processor to 400Mhz G3 and the graphics card to 16MB. The card is -99 vintage from my older mac that had 2MB's on board.

I could shop a new mac if I wanted, even a top of the line model. But since CM is the most taxing software I have, I see no reason to. Why upgrade when everything works well enough. I dont play FPS games (well I played Rainbow Six) as I find them incredibly pointless waste of time.

I'll probably be able to grab a G4 from work before CM3 arrives, assuming it's still over a year away. CM2 will run on my current setup.

I'd assume that if CM2 would require 400Mhz, 128MB's of RAM and a 16MB card, that'd cut out about half of the current users. Maybe half of those cut off would upgrade to be able to run CM. And CM still wouldn't look nearly as good as Halo or something like that.

In short, I believe upping system demands beyond certain point would cost BTS more customers than it would gain them. The question is, where's the point. Not too far up I wager.

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

I'd assume that if CM2 would require 400Mhz, 128MB's of RAM and a 16MB card, that'd cut out about half of the current users. Maybe half of those cut off would upgrade to be able to run CM. And CM still wouldn't look nearly as good as Halo or something like that.

In short, I believe upping system demands beyond certain point would cost BTS more customers than it would gain them. The question is, where's the point. Not too far up I wager.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I wonder what the average really is, it would be interesting to see some statistics about that, and I guess it would also help BTS plan their next engine. Maybe the average is much higher than you think, then agai, maybe lower. Sadly there are no such statistics (as I know of anyway), that's why I wondered what the other users out there have.

And, I don't think CM will ever compete graphically against FPS games, that's just unrealistic, but it can do better than now...

Panzer

[Mattias]

As far as the graphics go Panzer76 I think the main “problem” for CM was that BTS is a very small company. There was simply a limit to how much time could be put into that part of the game. Ease of use, effectiveness and clarity was no doubt prime goals as far as graphics were concerned. Once that was achieved we were already in spring 2000, high time for feature lock.

I don’t know if you ever played the beta demo. If you have you’ll have a fair idea of the rate of progress BTS was able to achieve in the graphics department during the period autumn 99 to spring 00. Excluding engine inherent limitations I think you’ll, at least, be able to extrapolate that rate of improvement into CM:BB.

M.