Fallschirmjager Stugs

[Pud]

Im going to be playing a custom map with a friend and one of the thing we are going to allow is each player can edit in upto 2 "dropzones" for their airbourne anywhere on the map for these units to start in.

My question is, in the game setup the Fallschirmjager can access Stugs!! does this mean they worked out a way to get these vehicle to drop zones (gliders?) or are they listed as being available for some other reason?

Can someone respond soon as i want to get this game underway.

[Pzman]

They had them because in most cases the Fallschirmjager that were used after 1943 were land based, and didn't do air drops. For an example look at the 6th Fallschirmjager Division in the Rhichswald, they were land based, so there was not a "drop zone" so to speak. That is why, in my opinion BTS gave them StuGs, I think that they may have had some JU-52s modified to drop them via the same way as Allied Airborne light tanks were dropped, I could be wrong though.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]</p>

[Ellros]

I would assume they are support units allocated for conventional operations. I seriously doubt the Germans had the capability to airdrop any armor.

I've seen documentaries about a large German glider that was tested carrying a light tank, a Pz I or II I think. But not a StuG. And it was not used operationally.

ps... a Ju-52 could carry motorcycles, but nowhere close to a tank, or even a Kubelwagen (I think). It's smaller than a C-47 (which could 'just' carry a jeep). Sorry Rob

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Ellros ]</p>

[Pud]

many thanks guys for the quick response, confirmed what I thought to be correct.

[Sitzkrieg]

By 1944, the Allies had total air superiority so airborne troops were pretty worthless for the Germans. So they were used as regular infantry units. They have access to StuGs because they were either in the TO&E for a 1944 Fallschirmjager division or BTS included them so Fallschirmjager units would have at least some armor.

As for being air-dropped, I don't think so. A JU-52 had enough trouble getting airborne with a full compliment of troops, let alone an additional 20-odd tons of assault gun :eek: . The only vehicle I know of that was "dropped" by airborne troops during the war was the Allies "dropping" jeeps and that was by glider.

Hope this helps.

[Andrew H.]

The StuGs were actually disassembled and the parts distributed across a parachute battalion; I think in the ratio of 4 StuGs to a battalion. The men would then drop with the appropriate StuG parts and reassemble the StuG once they were on the ground. In ideal situations, a StuG could be assembled in as little as 15 minutes.

Obviously, this only worked because the StuG was a relatively straightforward vehicle; it would not have worked with a turreted vehicle.

Despite the fact that the StuG could be assembled rapidly in ideal situations, situations were rarely ideal. On Crete, for example, the paratroopers landed so far apart that they had great difficulty assembling their StuGs. It often happened that the troopers with critical components were pinned down or killed. In a battle near Malmeme, for example, the British pinned down the unit carrying the track pins for over 24 hours, with predictable results. The coastal areas were also treacherous; in one famous incident, the squad carrying a StuG transmission landed in the sea and every man drowned. It wasn't until the airports were seized that the situation became better.

[Ellros]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> The StuGs were actually disassembled and the parts distributed across a parachute battalion; I think in the ratio of 4 StuGs to a battalion. The men would then drop with the appropriate StuG parts and reassemble the StuG once they were on the ground. In ideal situations, a StuG could be assembled in as little as 15 minutes. <hr></blockquote>

ROFL... that was original

[Affentitten]

After the invasion of Crete, there were no major German airdrops. The vast majority of German paratroops in 44/45 would have never made a combat drop. There just wasn't the aircraft or the strategic situation to permit it.

The Germans had no ability to airland armour. Their standard glider in the early days (Eben Emael) was the DFS 230 which could hold 12 -15 men in cramped conditions. In the later part of the war there was the twin-boomed Go 244, which could load a kubelwagen or a gun. There was also the Me 321 "gigant", more commonly seen as the powered Me 323. Whilst it could take a load of about 16 tons, I think there were balance issues with it packing a whole AFV in one place, and it required 3 Me 110's towing it simultaneously under such a load; an incredibly dangerous undertaking. Anyway, by the end of the North African campaign most of those fat lumberers had been turkey shot out of the sky.

The only combat airlanding of armour that took place in WW2 was via the big British Hamilcar gliders, which could transport a light Tetrach tank or a 17 lber AT gun.

[Ogadai]

Or an M-22 'Locust' light tank (US equivalent of the Tetrach).

In addition, the Me-321 was, after the initial problems with the "Troikaschlep" (3 x Me110's) usually towed aloft by the Ju-290 transport aircraft (developed from the Ju-90, which was only just able to get an Me-321 aloft, if it was unloaded).

Finally, there were other transport aircraft available to the Luftwaffe, apart from the Ju-52. There were the Ju-252 and Ju-352's both smoothskinned developments of the original Ju-52 trimotor, produced in small numbers. The Ju-90/290/390 and the Ar-334, all of which could and were used on the Eastern Front extensively for aerial resupply, paradropping and glider towing. Several especially equipped Ju-290's undertook and completed several return trips from German occupied Russian territory to Manchuria and back, as late as September 1944 (via Iran-Afghanistan-Tibet-China because of Japanese concerns about their neutrality pact with the USSR).

The Me-321/323 could carry a Panzer III or 38(t) or early Stug III tank. Alternative loads included a field gun and tractor or up to 200 soldiers. They were used extensively around Stalingrad and over the Mediterrean from Sicily to Tunisia. Outside of aircover, they were fairly easy pickings for fighters though.

If Operation Herkules, the invasion of Malta had gone ahead, they would have seen fairly extensive use in a combat role.

[Affentitten]

Buit as I said, they were never used to actually land armour in combat. There was also the He-111Z "Zwillinge", made from 2 He-111's stuck together which was used to tow the Gigant. But there was never sufficient numbers to mount anything on the scale of a British or American airlanding assault. Lack of air superiority has its drawbacks.

I'm also not sure that the Locust tank was ever actually landed in combat, since the Yanks didn't have a glider to do it with. Maybe they might have had Hamilcars seconded from the Brits though.

[Affentitten]

Also, as early as 1935, the Russians had slung pallet-borne T-37 tanks under TB-3 bombers.

Imagine landing that biatch!

[von Murrin]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pud:

[QB]My question is, in the game setup the Fallschirmjager can access Stugs!! does this mean they worked out a way to get these vehicle to drop zones (gliders?) or are they listed as being available for some other reason?[QB]<hr></blockquote>

This is coming strictly from memory so don't take it as gospel, but they are organic to the division.

After the high losses on Crete, Hitler forbade any further airborne operations. What that did was turn the FJ divs into crack, auto weapons-heavy infantry divs. I don't know when, but the Stugs were added to the FJ divs as AT/infantry support.

Nathanael

[Ogadai]

The British used M-22's during the crossing of the Rhine, landing them with Hamilcars.

Thanks for the mentioning the He-111Z, I'd forgotten that one but it wasn't a particularly well liked aircraft, the two fuselages tended to flex apparently in ways the pilots didn't like. The Ju-290 was much preferred for the Me-321.

BTW, didn't the Germans mount an airborne operations in Jugoslavia against Tito and in Central France against the Maquis on some plateau in 1944?

[argie]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ogadai:

BTW, didn't the Germans mount an airborne operations in Jugoslavia against Tito and in Central France against the Maquis on some plateau in 1944?<hr></blockquote>

They did, but both were most a Commando Raid like operation, than a fully airborne deployment.

[von Murrin]

Heh, nice coincidence. I'm in the middle of The Second World War by Keegan and I'm reading about that right now. Appearently those ops were particularly brutal.

Nathanael

[aka_tom_w]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

The StuGs were actually disassembled and the parts distributed across a parachute battalion; I think in the ratio of 4 StuGs to a battalion. The men would then drop with the appropriate StuG parts and reassemble the StuG once they were on the ground. In ideal situations, a StuG could be assembled in as little as 15 minutes.

Obviously, this only worked because the StuG was a relatively straightforward vehicle; it would not have worked with a turreted vehicle.

Despite the fact that the StuG could be assembled rapidly in ideal situations, situations were rarely ideal. On Crete, for example, the paratroopers landed so far apart that they had great difficulty assembling their StuGs. It often happened that the troopers with critical components were pinned down or killed. In a battle near Malmeme, for example, the British pinned down the unit carrying the track pins for over 24 hours, with predictable results. The coastal areas were also treacherous; in one famous incident, the squad carrying a StuG transmission landed in the sea and every man drowned. It wasn't until the airports were seized that the situation became better.<hr></blockquote>

Somebody please tell me this is not true???

-tom w

[gunnergoz]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Somebody please tell me this is not true???

-tom w<hr></blockquote>

Obviously, Tom, you have never heard of the Hermann Goering Parachute Panzer Division! An entire division of Tigers, panthers, stugs and panzer artillery all set up to chute into the enemy's rear area. Their motto "To boldly go where no landser has been before" is legendary. The only problem ever confronting the division was the shortfall of aircraft - approximately 22,500 JU52's and another 5,500 He111's were needed to lift it into action, along with 18,000 Fiesler Storch's to bring the infantry along. An entire generation of Chinese silk worms gave their all for the Fatherland for parachutes that were to be prepared, unfortunately to no avail since there was insufficient airlift at the time. The silk ended up being used to make a series of fashionable robes for Herr Goering.

[History Buff]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pud:

Im going to be playing a custom map with a friend and one of the thing we are going to allow is each player can edit in upto 2 "dropzones" for their airbourne anywhere on the map for these units to start in.

My question is, in the game setup the Fallschirmjager can access Stugs!! does this mean they worked out a way to get these vehicle to drop zones (gliders?) or are they listed as being available for some other reason?

Can someone respond soon as i want to get this game underway.<hr></blockquote>

By 1944/45 the German Luftwaffe was virtually a fraction of what it was during 1939/40. After many years of bloody air war with Britain and the USSR, the Luftwaffe was small and Göering lied about his loss' to Hitler in fear of being dropped, and therefore aircraft production was never huge during the central period of the war.

Many German Airborne units now had the problem of no aircraft to drop em in, and as a result became another branch of footsloggers and as a result tanks like the StuG were assigned to them for armoured support.

Hope this helps. :cool:

[JasonC]

StuG were not organic to FJ divisions. Both FJ and Luftwaffe field divisions, like all infantry divisions, did have a divisional AT battalion, which usually had towed PAK but sometimes had 1 company of StuG or Marder, or one of each.

In addition, there were a few - very few - higher level StuG formations that were part of the Luftwaffe ground forces, and designated "FJ". Just like army StuG brigades, these were independent battalion-sized units (called "brigades" as a legacy of the old artillery unit size designations StuGs came from) at the corps or army level, used to support this or that line infantry division. They seem to be the source of the CM StuG availability.

11 FJ StuG Brigade - fought near Nancy with 45 StuG in September, 1944 and destroyed. Rebuilt for the Ardennes offensive, where it supported the 5th FJ division, with 27 StuG. Rebuilt again, with a name change, in the spring of 1945.

12 FJ StuG Brigade - 11 StuG (one company) fought in Normandy with the 3rd FJ division, destroyed at Falaise. In September, supported 7th FJ division near Arnhem, but with only a handful of replacement vehicles (company strength or less). Built up to full strength in early 1945, and fought with the 7th FJ division again in the Reichswald battles.

21 FJ Brigade - Fought in Italy with 45 StuG.

The 3rd Battalion of the Herman Goering Panzer division was also equipped with StuG, 45 of them. I and II were Pz IV and Panther, just like other panzer divisions. The unusual 3-battalion formation of the HG panzer regiment took the place of a divisional panzerjaeger or assault gun battalion in Heer and SS panzer divisions. Later the division was expanded to a corps-sized formation.

To understand such things as the "Luftwaffe field divisions" and "mission creep" of the FJ, you have to understand it was as much Goering's private army, as the SS was Himmler's. The internal balance of power in the Nazi regime depended on rivalries between equally ruthless "princelings", arbitrated by Hitler personally. If anyone started getting independent, he just authorized an expansion in a rival's forces while marginalizing the uppity one, until the independence evaporated. The result was barging bureaucracies competing with each other in parallel, not a functional differentiation between roles. That this diverted manpower from best uses and made for completely irrational organizational roles, and coordination nightmares, was the price the regime paid for stability among thugs. In practice it was left to staff officers and field grade line commanders to coordinate the resulting mish-mash.

[argie]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ogadai:

BTW, didn't the Germans mount an airborne operations in Jugoslavia against Tito and in Central France against the Maquis on some plateau in 1944?<hr></blockquote>

Oh! And also was the airborne operation in the Ardennes ofensive, an absolute fiasco, with paratroopers who never jumped before, pilots that never worked with paratroopers, navigators that never found those f***g bridges, etc.

As an interesting trivia, one of the leaders of the operations jumped with a Russian parachute, and he said that was much better than the German ones. Also, he jumped with a broken arm, so he used only one hand to control the Russian parachute. I have the reference in another computer. Is one of those post war essays German officers wrote for US Army.

[Iron Chef Sakai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by History Buff:

By 1944/45 the German Luftwaffe was virtually a fraction of what it was during 1939/40. After many years of bloody air war with Britain and the USSR, the Luftwaffe was small and Göering lied about his loss' to Hitler in fear of being dropped, and therefore aircraft production was never huge during the central period of the war.

Many German Airborne units now had the problem of no aircraft to drop em in, and as a result became another branch of footsloggers and as a result tanks like the StuG were assigned to them for armoured support. aircraft prduction was huge in the central period of the war, look how many me-109's were built in 1943, by 44/45 the luftwaffe was basiclay non existant though, as far as german aircraft hat could carry vehicles,...see gigant

Hope this helps. :cool: <hr></blockquote>

[Iron Chef Sakai]

there now that looks better i didnt realize you could edit. i actualy meant for my post to be below what he wrote, not joined at the end of it

[Affentitten]

There were a number of German parachute drops in the latter years of the war, especially in Greece and the Balkans. But all of them were purely tactical operations involving a handful of planes and men.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Oh! And also was the airborne operation in the Ardennes ofensive, an absolute fiasco, with paratroopers who never jumped before, pilots that never worked with paratroopers, navigators that never found those f***g bridges, etc.<hr></blockquote>

Sounds exactly like the Allied airborne invasion of Sicily. Just throw in "massed casualties from friendly fire" as well.

[Iron Chef Sakai]

in 1943 the luftwaffe was much larger then it was in 1939-1941. take a look at aircraft production. it's amazing in the growth of all the major powers airforces during the war. even more impressive is take a look at the production of the american navy during ww2. it's amazing how fast we could put ships together and set them out on the high seas

[Iron Chef Sakai]

yes the opening stages of the italian campaign were hard fought and could have ended in a loss. the stukas realy did a number on the anzio assault