Louie the Toad Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Played August Bank Holiday. Believe he is modeled as elite. Got into a long range tank duel, got 1 kill then got knocked out. Missed with every shot but 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwcanuck Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 I think there are a few excellent "Villars Bocage" scenarios with Michael Wittman. I could be wrong, but from what I have seen on other posts is that poor Michael does not survive often. From watching the recent documentary on Michael Wittman this man used a lot of intuition and "gut" feeling on where his opponent would be and this led to a lot of his successes; something a great game like CM cannot portray. RW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Thats probably better than Wittman did in the real battle of St. Aignan. He and and a couple of other tanks only managed to advance about 200 meters or so past Cramnesil when his tank (and two or three others) were smoked by one Firefly crew. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rwcanuck: Michael Wittman this man used a lot of intuition and "gut" feeling on where his opponent would be and this led to a lot of his successes; something a great game like CM cannot portray. RW<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd say there is a problem in how CM models elite units. I gather an elite gunner is not one bit more accurate than a conscript! He just reacts quiker, is better at spotting the enemy and shoots faster. For veterans that kind of differences are good enough, but that's not good enough for elite units, "the best of the best"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cafard Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rwcanuck: I think there are a few excellent "Villars Bocage" scenarios with Michael Wittman. I could be wrong, but from what I have seen on other posts is that poor Michael does not survive often.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I received my full version of CM not a month ago, so it's a recent one. There *is* indeed a Villers-Bocage scenario included. I can mail it to you if you're looking for it. And... I do confirm, Wittman doesn't survive often, at least in my games. But i'm far from being an expert tactician Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Well, Wittman was killed in real life in the historical events modelled in "August Bank Holiday" and in the real life equivalent of "Villier Bocage" he lost his tank, though he personally survived. So similar results in CM should not be surprising. If you want Wittman to survive, you may have to adopt cagier tactics than he used in real life. Combine his elite status as a tanker with your own, even more elite, tactical thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Mahone Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 I still think Wittman was killed by a rocket from a British Hurricane Franko. And so did his old gunner, Bobby Woll. -Head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 I created a scenario called Wittman's Last Hour based on maps and interviews sent to me by Mace. [Was from a book, Mace can chime in here]. I included the real number of tanks and even a fighter bomber for those that say it is what nailed the tank. It was included in Rune Pak 3 available at Manx's site. The map is the actual terrain.... his luck had just ran out that day. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porajkl Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune: I created a scenario called Wittman's Last Hour based on maps and interviews sent to me by Mace. [Was from a book, Mace can chime in here]. I included the real number of tanks and even a fighter bomber for those that say it is what nailed the tank. It was included in Rune Pak 3 available at Manx's site. The map is the actual terrain.... his luck had just ran out that day. Rune<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Your scenario is great, Rune! Maybe I was lucky, but there was no fighter-bomber attacking my Wittman's group. I managed to destroy all allied tanks and seize the village for loss of one Tiger. Wittman survived. But you must be really carefull to succeed in this scenario... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Wittman or no Wittman, it is well know that CM does not portray long range gun fire in an entirly satsfactory manner. That is why stand off tanks like the Tigers are being short changed in these engagements. No doubt BTS will work on this for CM2 though, long range fire definitely being more prevalent there. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Head Mahone: I still think Wittman was killed by a rocket from a British Hurricane Franko. And so did his old gunner, Bobby Woll. -Head<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's doubtful that Hawker Hurricanes were still flying around over NW Europe in the GS role, Head. I presume you meant a Hawker Typhoon instead. Yes, that has been alleged in the past that an RAF CS aircraft got Wittman's tank, as well as alleged that a 5.5" artillery shell got lucky instead. From my view, it's not been resolved conclusively as to who got Wittman (not that it matters much anyway), but the balance of evidence further suggests to me that it was indeed a Firefly tank that scored the kill. Take note that the map of the single scenario "Villers Bocage--Tiger!!" is VERY different from that used for the Villers operation game. The author of the Villers operation further states that his map is as accurate as he could make based on his personal survey & study of the VB battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 I think the new book about Normandy by Denis Whitaker intimates that two tanks - one Canadian and one British - also were responsible for Wittman's demise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Go here: http://www.derkessel.com/ Click on the historical battles section, go to page 4, download "Cintheaux-Totalize" and play as the Germans. IMO, an excellent scenario. [ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: Kingfish ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I think the new book about Normandy by Denis Whitaker intimates that two tanks - one Canadian and one British - also were responsible for Wittman's demise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am aware of the UK tank unit (1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry) that has been referenced to have engaged Wittman in his last battle. What Canadian unit was also nearby? Or was the Canadian tank attached to the noted UK unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 Apparently, a little known combat film of the event shot by one Hauptsturmfueher Zapruder has some curious anomolies. There's an unconcerned-looking Frenchman with an umbrella, and what appears to be another Tiger just visible behind a grassy knoll. Oliver Stone has picked up the movie rights... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted April 25, 2001 Share Posted April 25, 2001 He was not killed by an aircraft. His tank was hit on the right rear of the turret, and the turret was traversed left, FACING Canadian armor. The British Armor of the Northamp Yeomanry was located in the Apple Orchard fronting St. Aignan, to Wittman's RIGHT. The firefly gunner, Joe Eikins, smoked the lead tiger, and then Wittman, by hitting his right/rear turret armor. The first shot "knocked out" the Tiger, the second shot blew its lid off. The remnants of the crew were buried near the road, and were discovered by the Author of Panzers in Normandy while researching for the book. He probably did not know what hit him. Wittman may have started to believe his own hype. He should never have just charged on down the road..and perhaps should have waited for other armored units to come up (which were just coming in line). He didn't go out as a hero fighting outnumbered, as is often portrayed, or by an aircraft. All modern evidence suggests he was killed in the mundane way of most tankers..by other tank who got the drop on him. Hurricanes were'nt flying close air support in Normandy in 1944. Typhoons were. Frank [ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: Franko ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwcanuck Posted April 26, 2001 Share Posted April 26, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I still think Wittman was killed by a rocket from a British Hurricane Franko. And so did his old gunner, Bobby Woll. -Head <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bobby Woll was not in Tiger 007 the day it was knocked out. He was given command of his own Tiger Tank in August '44; was wounded and was fit for duty in March '45 and fought on to the end of the war. After the war he became an electrician and recently died in 1996. RW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted April 26, 2001 Share Posted April 26, 2001 Franko <-------- what he said. You tell like it was Franko (nice sig btw). Typhoon/8inch shell sheesh! The Cintheaux-Totalize scenario pretty much set's it out quite well. But don't play Germans, play allies, you can roast Wittmann's arse and the AI almost plays it as dumbly as he did that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMHPaladin Posted April 26, 2001 Share Posted April 26, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra: Apparently, a little known combat film of the event shot by one Hauptsturmfueher Zapruder has some curious anomolies. There's an unconcerned-looking Frenchman with an umbrella, and what appears to be another Tiger just visible behind a grassy knoll. Oliver Stone has picked up the movie rights...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ROFLMAO , classic Babra . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schugger Posted April 26, 2001 Share Posted April 26, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra: Apparently, a little known combat film of the event shot by one Hauptsturmfueher Zapruder has some curious anomolies. There's an unconcerned-looking Frenchman with an umbrella, and what appears to be another Tiger just visible behind a grassy knoll. Oliver Stone has picked up the movie rights...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Holy crap, Babra this is truly hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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