Pre-Game BOMBARDMENT!

[Chad Harrison]

my search engine did not bring up anything, so here i go. we all know it was a part of a pre-assult "softening up", the pre battle artillery/air bombardment. would that add to the flavor of CM2? i think it would be a great tool for scenario designers, or even for QB. leaving craters, X'd buildings/bridges, fires, random casulties, X'd wire. opionions? :confused:

[Michael Emrys]

This was discussed three or four months back. I guess you would have missed that one, and I won't be so cruel as to send you into the archives. I don't recall if BTS made a statement of their position on the issue. Perhaps someone else recalls better than I. Otherwise, we will all just have to wait until the game appears...

Michael

P.S. How did you manage to get in 52 posts in only two days? You're a busy little beaver!

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[tiborhead]

Hmmm.. I've always liked the idea, provided it be used on battalion sized engagements. Anything smaller would seem to be out of scope. Just my opinion.

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: tiborhead ]

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Anything smaller would seem to be out of scope.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

battalion size would make the most sense, an assult scenario. but on a small/medium map it could be company size representing just a portion of the grander assult. that was my thinking atleast. wouldnt it be cool to watch a pre bombardment "movie" and watch everything blow up?

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

battalion size would make the most sense, an assult scenario. but on a small/medium map it could be company size representing just a portion of the grander assult. that was my thinking atleast. wouldnt it be cool to watch a pre bombardment "movie" and watch everything blow up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing whatsoever is stopping you. Just

modify any scenario you like, by giving

the attackers a bunch of spotters and

add a number of turns at the beginning of

the game. Of course you have to give the

other guy something in return.

I've done this in some desert scenarios

that I played against the AI (about

regiment size, with a whole battalion

of dug-in, defending tanks) and had

a nice time watching the pre-bombardment

come down from a ridge 1.5 km away.

--Rett

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I don't recall if BTS made a statement of their position on the issue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outside the scope of CM, IIRC. CM Battles take place after the bombardment.

[Battlefront.com]

CMBB now allows for a Turn One bombardment without any delay. This is primarily to simulate the rather inflexible Soviet artillery system of firecontrol, but it works for all nations. Basically, before the battle started the Soviets predetermined where they were going to fire, let loose, and then assaulted. Mortars were used during the battle and, to a lesser degree, timed preplanned artillery strikes in areas not actually being assaulted (like rear road crossings and such).

In general, Soviet FO delays will be so bad that this will be the only viable means of using artillery. The player CAN opt to call down artillery during the battle, but it will much harder to do this because of the lengthy delays.

Steve

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

CMBB now allows for a Turn One bombardment without any delay. This is primarily to simulate the rather inflexible Soviet artillery system of firecontrol, but it works for all nations. Basically, before the battle started the Soviets predetermined where they were going to fire, let loose, and then assaulted. Mortars were used during the battle and, to a lesser degree, timed preplanned artillery strikes in areas not actually being assaulted (like rear road crossings and such).

In general, Soviet FO delays will be so bad that this will be the only viable means of using artillery. The player CAN opt to call down artillery during the battle, but it will much harder to do this because of the lengthy delays.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow - great stuff.

[olandt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

CMBB now allows for a Turn One bombardment without any delay. This is primarily to simulate the rather inflexible Soviet artillery system of firecontrol, but it works for all nations. Basically, before the battle started the Soviets predetermined where they were going to fire, let loose, and then assaulted. Mortars were used during the battle and, to a lesser degree, timed preplanned artillery strikes in areas not actually being assaulted (like rear road crossings and such).

In general, Soviet FO delays will be so bad that this will be the only viable means of using artillery. The player CAN opt to call down artillery during the battle, but it will much harder to do this because of the lengthy delays.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Steve

Just a couple of followup questions then if I'm not to presumtous...

First, just to clarify, will Soviet artillery still be bought the same way and have on map FOs to direct the fire? Or is prep atry bought seperately and different from "traditional" arty?

Second, will the prep arty be able to shift under the FOs orders?

Finally, as we know the soviets loved their arty even more than the Americans, are there significant price differences for the Soviets?

Thanks

Pete

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

CMBB now allows for a Turn One bombardment without any delay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sounds great steve! thanks for posting here, you answered my question. that will add a new flavor to CM! the good old spray and pray method.

[Warren Peace]

I'm glad to hear this feature has been included. Will it be possible in the Scenario editor to position these strikes? It could really help the PO.

[Battlefront.com]

Quick answers:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First, just to clarify, will Soviet artillery still be bought the same way and have on map FOs to direct the fire? Or is prep atry bought seperately and different from "traditional" arty?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Traditional method. The player decides how and where to use it. First turn bombardments have their +/- sides just as use in game does.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Second, will the prep arty be able to shift under the FOs orders?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think so, but probably not very much control.

No, the scenario editor will not allow the designer the ability to preplot artillery strikes. There is no support for issuing orders in the Editor.

Steve

[olandt]

bump

[Grisha]

Just give me BM-31s. Plot it in the middle, and you've got the map covered

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

CMBB now allows for a Turn One bombardment without any delay. This is primarily to simulate the rather inflexible Soviet artillery system of firecontrol, but it works for all nations. Basically, before the battle started the Soviets predetermined where they were going to fire, let loose, and then assaulted. Mortars were used during the battle and, to a lesser degree, timed preplanned artillery strikes in areas not actually being assaulted (like rear road crossings and such).

In general, Soviet FO delays will be so bad that this will be the only viable means of using artillery. The player CAN opt to call down artillery during the battle, but it will much harder to do this because of the lengthy delays.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why I applaud and welcome the decision to allow a first-turn artillery barrage in CMBB (to best model the way the Soviets used artillery), I believe this could be abused for gamey purposes.

In a QB meeting engagement, what is to prevent a player from purchasing large calibre artillery, then plotting a first turn artillery bombardment on his opponent’s set up zone?

Remember, the setup zone actually represents the entry points onto the battlefield, but also offers the opponent some intelligence where your forces are going to be concentrated at game’s start.

Hmm, perhaps I could use this tactic against some of my fellow cesspoolers, they're used to gamey!

Mace

[Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mace:

Why I applaud and welcome the decision to allow a first-turn artillery barrage in CMBB (to best model the way the Soviets used artillery), I believe this could be abused for gamey purposes.

In a QB meeting engagement, what is to prevent a player from purchasing large calibre artillery, then plotting a first turn artillery bombardment on his opponent’s set up zone?

Remember, the setup zone actually represents the entry points onto the battlefield, but also offers the opponent some intelligence where your forces are going to be concentrated at game’s start.

Hmm, perhaps I could use this tactic against some of my fellow cesspoolers, they're used to gamey!

Mace<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's why they are allowing all nations this pre-turn bombardment. While the "abuse" is certainly potentially there, it works both ways. Gamey or not, the pre-turn bombardment should be there in my opinion in order to give some semblence to the mass artillery the Red Army was known for especially from mid to late war. For all practical purposes, this is about all the artillery Red Army units will get since command and control for the Soviets is going to stink.

I'd imagine that large caliber artillery will be costly especially during the early years. Such artillery is quite costly even in CM1.

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Chad Harrison]

it will be nice to soften up the nice potential defensive areas. but that will come at a price. one of the funnest things i have done in CM1 is to call down 14' naval guns on d-day games! one round has something like 2348 firepower! :eek: ive KO tanks with those rounds before!

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Commissar:

I think that's why they are allowing all nations this pre-turn bombardment. While the "abuse" is certainly potentially there, it works both ways. Gamey or not, the pre-turn bombardment should be there in my opinion in order to give some semblence to the mass artillery the Red Army was known for especially from mid to late war. For all practical purposes, this is about all the artillery Red Army units will get since command and control for the Soviets is going to stink.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not disagreeing with the decision to allow it, I'm just pointing out that it could be abused in meeting agreements in that each player can be 100% certain that the opponent's forces will be located in the setup zone and thus a good target for a artillery strike.

Mace

[StellarRat]

"I'm not disagreeing with the decision to allow it, I'm just pointing out that it could be abused in meeting agreements in that each player can be 100% certain that the opponent's forces will be located in the setup zone and thus a good target for a artillery strike."

I don't think it should be allowed in anything other than assault scenario types, but if BTS can't change that with this go around there is some comfort in the fact that firing blindly isn't too effective. The Soviets certainly shouldn't be able to adjust their fire easily. It should take forever to shift targets (if at all), on the other hand their artillery should be dirt cheap.

I also have a feeling that Soviet artillery should be more scattered than German or other Allied artillery. Don't ask me to justify this I can't right now, but something is telling me that their arty was less accurate.

[Lorak]

I think this sounds like a good idea. Pretty realistic too. Of course I think BTS should look into this not being coded onto Mace's CD when his gets shipped. I think his guys should also be forced into the samuri uniform mod. So all his infantry will have big ten foot, bright flags tied to their backs. They can justify it by calling them "mobile TRP's".

Lorak

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Lorak ]

[Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mace:

I'm not disagreeing with the decision to allow it, I'm just pointing out that it could be abused in meeting agreements in that each player can be 100% certain that the opponent's forces will be located in the setup zone and thus a good target for a artillery strike.

Mace<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It'll most likely balance out since the Soviets will have very little ability to adjust fire while the Germans will not suffer from this inflexiblity. German artillery will likely be very effective by better accuracy and flexiblity which continued to be at high level all the way up to the end of the war. The Soviets lack this flexiblity but make up for it with high volume and theoretically well reconed areas for the prebombardment. However, BTS will also need to take into consideration the gameplay balance. But I think the prebombardment phase is due to gameplay considerations rather than in spite of it.

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Commissar ]