Sturmgruppe Fallschrimjagers and Mountain Troops VS Vanilla Amis

[Chad Harrison]

it used to be a joke that i had:

almost all PBEM games i started out with on the RD ladder i was the allies. in more than half of those games, i was up against sturmgruppes; almost always veteran ones at that. no big deal, you just deal with it.

more and more now i am fighting against fallschrimjagers in my PBEM games. now even better, i have seen the inclusion of the german mountain troops! my best story is a game that had the following: SS troops, fallschrimjagers, AND mountain troops! :eek:

i dont mind fighting them, but it sure gets interesting fighting them with my vanilla amis.

whats do the masses think about buying these very rare troops for ME? it seems to be a popular trend, which is funny because all of these troops saw limited action (esp. the mountain troops!, not so much with the fallschrimjagers though). i have been tempted to take the "everyone else is using them approach", but try to stick to rifle/motorized german troops.

on a side note, im not complaining, i cant because i dont ask them not to buy them. i just want to know how others view this trend?

thanks in advance for the input!

chad 'harrison'

[Berlichtingen]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

which is funny because all of these troops saw limited action<hr></blockquote>

Incorrect. Fallschirmjäger were quite common, and the SS were also quite common on the Western front. Garden variety German Infantry, however, was quite rare as the bulk of the Infantry Divisions were either destroyed at Normandy or fighting in the East. Gebirgsjägers, on the otherhand, were insanely rare.

[JonS]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

...Gebirgsjägers, on the otherhand, were insanely rare.<hr></blockquote>

I can find reference to two Gebirgs Divs on the Western Front: 6th SS Gebirgs Div "Nord", and 2nd Gebirgsjager Div.

The Heer division served in Southern Germany in 1945, while the SS blokes where along the central Rhine(?), also in 1945.

[Herr Kruger]

I use them, but not as much now as I did before as once I get to know my opponents and they seem to use Rifle Squads all the time I'll bring myself down as well... If I feel like my opponent will use Airborne I will counter with FJ but normally I use lesser squads and so far I've never used Mountain Troops.

[Stuka]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Gebirgsjägers, on the otherhand, were insanely rare.<hr></blockquote>

But not nearly as rare as the little-known 'Hamster jagers', these tough little buggers could chew through the wiring on a T-34 faster than you could say Woot!

[Berlichtingen]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JonS:

I can find reference to two Gebirgs Divs on the Western Front: 6th SS Gebirgs Div "Nord", and 2nd Gebirgsjager Div.

The Heer division served in Southern Germany in 1945, while the SS blokes where along the central Rhine(?), also in 1945.<hr></blockquote>

Nord fought during oeration 'Nordwind' (January 45) and the 2nd fought in Austria IIRC. There were a couple of independent Gebirgsjager battalions that fought in the Vosges in 44. There was never more than a 'division' employed at any given time, and then only in 1945. Compared to SS or Fallschirmjager Divisions that falls into the 'insanely' rare catagory. Much more common on the Eastern Front

[JasonC]

Real men can fight with German squads that have 1 LMG each and use some rifles. The historical participants did. Anyone that can't is a wuss.

That said, I suggest reducing ammo to 35 rounds per squad for the mostly-automatic squad types, while bumping the mostly rifle types to 45. That evens things out a bit, and it realistic. Automatics fire faster than rifles, not straighter. So they run out sooner in return for their firepower edge. Naturally you can only do this in scenarios - QBs use the default ammo levels.

If you care about history or play balance and a particular opponent insists on German uber-squads all the time, just tell him to play somebody else.

The only formations that deserve the uber-squad weapons load-outs, incidentally, are the SS and the Sturmgruppes, and the latter are rarer even than mountaineers. There were plenty of VG and FJ divisions in the west, but they didn't have the CM load-outs of automatics. Not much more than the vanilla infantry did, in fact. Any German force could have some portion of 2-LMG squads, 1/3rd being fairly common. But the mean was 1 LMG per squad outside of the Panzer divisions.

And the Allies supplied many more SMGs than the Germans did. (Not to mention carbines, which were all over the place). They were just more likely to wind up in the hands of crews and support troops.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

i just want to know how others view this trend?

thanks in advance for the input!<hr></blockquote>

You're late to the party, Chad Check this thread out from last year: Fallschirmjager Trend

What do I think? Well, I happen to also be on the RD ladder, so I see them all the time. When playing as Germans I pick them maybe half the time or a little less, and use vanilla infantry the rest of the time. Unless there is some agreement before hand, I don't have a problem with them.

One thing I don't do is mix them together in the same game.

[Simon Fox]

I agree with Jason on this one. Certainly the SS and FJ units were relatively common on the Western Front. However, there is considerable doubt that they were all equipped at the level shown in CMBO. Using the Heer standard organisation for many of these troops is probably closer to reality IMO.

[Redwolf]

On the positive side, the squads with two LMGs and also the ones with many MP44 cost more by men. And while Panzerfausts may be very cheap, they cost some points.

So if you can hit them with something else than your own weaker infantry, you gain more points than by beating up vanilla infantry.

Obviously, Gebirgsjaeger and Fallschirmjaeger require entirely different tactics from both sides, since the Fallschirmjaeger are long-range firepower and the Gebirgsjaeger mostly short-range, but with two LMGs. I never understood why people like the Gebirgsjaeger, and I came to the conclusion that I mostly play people who know how to keep infantry at a distance. I like the Fallschirmjaeger, though, but the grain of salt why they die is not neglectable. And BTW they come with extra-cheap Panzerschrecks.

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p>

[Chad Harrison]

thanks for the replies.

as i said in the beginning, i knew that there were a great deal of action for the fallschrimjagers (esp at normandy), and ofcourse the SS troops were just about everywhere; what made me laugh so much was when they all (SS, fallschrimjagers, mountain troops and sturmgruppes) would all show up together! :eek:

if you buy just fallschimjagers and a few rifle squads, sure that believeable and im sure that was common in normandy. if i face just mountain troops, okay, maybe this is that one battle in normandy where that actually did happen. it just ammuses me when they all show up in groups together. im not calling it gamey, it just seems to be more common than not.

who were the sturmgruppes anyway? the rough german translation is "storm troops" isnt it? (hey, someone could do a white armour mod for them! then i could relate more fully!) how often where they around? above all others, they seem to be in just about every game i play, and when they are in, they always seem to be veteran.

i used to buy american paratroopers with my rifle men, but have strayed away from that now. IMO, its not worth the extra points for the .50cal and 60mm mortar. and IMO they can hold their own just as well in a pinch. i have grown esp fond of the 45 rifle squads for the amis. that extra BAR makes quite a difference.

and thats my other point, as the allies, its harder to create unrealistic (not unhistoric, unREALISTIC) forces. there are the good old m8HMC and recoiless rifles, but everything else was pretty common. when i am the axis, its pretty cut and dry what i play against. but whenever im the allies (which i prefer, cant beat a shermans effectiveness!), it seems like i am fighting a little bit of every branch of the werchmart. if you could buy air force troops for the germans, im sure they would be just as common as the mountain troops in the game!

i have to side with JasonC, i like to play with mainly just vanilla troops. it makes the game a little more challanging. veteran sturmgruppes seem to be just another way to give yourself a point/value advantage; right up there with the 20mm flaK.

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

You're late to the party, Chad Check this thread out from last year: Fallschirmjager Trend

What do I think? Well, I happen to also be on the RD ladder, so I see them all the time. When playing as Germans I pick them maybe half the time or a little less, and use vanilla infantry the rest of the time. Unless there is some agreement before hand, I don't have a problem with them.

One thing I don't do is mix them together in the same game.<hr></blockquote>

vanir, i wish i could of been earlier to this party. the month of may proved to be a month of a great revelation given to me!

its good to hear that someone else on the ladder sees them a lot too, i thought for awhile there that it must just be the people i play. like i said, i dont mind them either, they just seem to be everyones pick. all this is making me want to lean more and more towards playing/creating more scenarios. dont have very many choices there.

i think of how many mountain troops/sturmgruppes i have ever seen in a scenario i have played: 0%

how many mountain troops, sturmgruppes, fallschrimjagers are in my PBEM games: 99.9%

[jshandorf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

vanir, i wish i could of been earlier to this party. the month of may proved to be a month of a great revelation given to me!

its good to hear that someone else on the ladder sees them a lot too, i thought for awhile there that it must just be the people i play. like i said, i dont mind them either, they just seem to be everyones pick. all this is making me want to lean more and more towards playing/creating more scenarios. dont have very many choices there.

i think of how many mountain troops/sturmgruppes i have ever seen in a scenario i have played: 0%

how many mountain troops, sturmgruppes, fallschrimjagers are in my PBEM games: 99.9%<hr></blockquote>

So what is really your point here? Is it that people mostly pick unhistorical unit configurations, or that they pick rare units too much? Then again who doesn't know this already and who really cares? It is not like you are bestowing on us some insight we all don't already know.

If you are losing to these people then you obviously need to adjust your playing style to counter theirs or you need to play different people.

IMO the units are there to play with. It's a game. You can't tell people that they MUST play only 5% of their games with Mountain troops because this is "more historical". BS. They can play anyway they want. If you don't like it pick up your marbles and go home. It is just that simple.

Jeff

[Edited: Because when I am irritable I make mistakes.]

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: jshandorf ]</p>

[Berlichtingen]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

all this is making me want to lean more and more towards playing/creating more scenarios. dont have very many choices there.<hr></blockquote>

Care to elaborate an this insanely inaccurate statement? Current count at The Scenario Depot is 902 battles and 89 operations.

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jshandorf:

So what is really your point here? Is it that people mostly pick unhistorical unit configurations, or that they pick rare units too much? Then again who doesn't know this already and who really cares? <hr></blockquote>

my point was very simple: i just wanted to know if others are running into this trend. i was not trying to make a point, i was not trying to say buying these 'rare' troops is gamey; i suppose its just not what i expected to see. i just noticed a pattern in my games, one that i did not follow, and it happened more times than not, and i just wanted to see if there was some mystery that i was missing?!? i like hamsters myself.

i know this has been beaten to death in the past. i can say that i have never bought fallschrimjagers or mountain troops. i have not because in my mind i dont want to mix those troops with other arms of the werchmart. thats just me, i dont ask that of anyone else. from the posts above, it seems that atleast some others do the same, but not all.

there is no point to this post! :eek: its just been a evil trick to get others to waste time reading and posting to nothing!

i think i might have to get these fallschrimjagers a try so i can see what the big deal about them is. then ill get back to buying a single churchill VIII with my all allied forces.

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Care to elaborate an this insanely inaccurate statement? Current count at The Scenario Depot is 902 battles and 89 operations.<hr></blockquote>

i would be happy to elaborate, i meant playing more scenarios in my PBEM games, so that there is a more historic side balance (vanilla vs vanilla), which is what i prefer. there are more scenarios out there than any of us could ever go through! and recently i have tried my hand at creating battles, and have found that a load of fun!

if i had said that there were not enough battles out there and there should be more made, i would then turn off my computer, throw away my modem, and never show my face again on the forum or even look at my CM CD for fear that i would be destroyed by the masses of CM players!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

atleast then we wouldnt have pointless posts from arizona right?

[Graaf Spee]

Ok I know this thread wasnt about exactly this, but here goes. Didnt the germans on the attack concentrate a lot of atumatic weapons in the force which were supposed to go in the front? Im going from memory here so I might also be incorrect about details. But Im sure that Ive read this on this BBS. The concentration of automatic weapons was also extra heavy in any force held back for counterattacks. If thats true then I dont see anything wrong with having a vet sturmkompanie on the attack and some troops with a lot of smgs for counterattacking when defending.

Can anyone here confirm this?

/Kristian

ps Panzers- Marsch! is a wonderful film. Including two german traning movies. One for new Panther crews. The other with a combined force counter attack including Panzerjaeger IV and 251Ds(the one with flamethrowers). One interesting thing is that the flamethrowers are used only after the enemy is beaten to mop up. Just like in CM! There are some other footage in there as well including a 1.5 sec sequence with a Brummbaer which they claim is the only one existing. Buy it today if you didnt do it yesterday.

[PiggDogg]

Most of the trouble with human choose troops games (as opposed to computer choose troops) is the following: all paratrooper/fallshrims, all Hetzer, all Jumbo, all uber tank, all nuclear arty armies. :eek:

Oh, ... I forgot the all gerbil trooper (yeah, I know, gebirgsjager) armies.

In a 1500 pt game between excellent CM players, has anyone ever seen puny 81 mm spotters?? (Yeah, I know, it has happened once. ) In such games, everyone has 105 mm or 120 mm arty helping their reinforced company.

Indeed, I have used 155 mm arty in 1500 pt games. Some cool to see my opponent's platoons melt into slag. :eek: I can buy the best troops with the best of 'em.

Human troops choose games are an exercise in force buying optimization. Computer choose games gives everyone crappe. You just gotta make do with what you got. Computer choose games 'feel' more realistic.

Cheers, Richard :cool:

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Graaf Spee:

Ok I know this thread wasnt about exactly this, but here goes. Didnt the germans on the attack concentrate a lot of atumatic weapons in the force which were supposed to go in the front? Im going from memory here so I might also be incorrect about details. But Im sure that Ive read this on this BBS. The concentration of automatic weapons was also extra heavy in any force held back for counterattacks. If thats true then I dont see anything wrong with having a vet sturmkompanie on the attack and some troops with a lot of smgs for counterattacking when defending.

Can anyone here confirm this?

<hr></blockquote>

How is that supposed to work? The smallarms are given permenently to troops and you can't shift them easily, except maybe MGs.

[Berlichtingen]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Graaf Spee:

Ok I know this thread wasnt about exactly this, but here goes. Didnt the germans on the attack concentrate a lot of atumatic weapons in the force which were supposed to go in the front? <hr></blockquote>

Correct... those would be the real Sturmgruppes. Usually all armed with SMGs and a boatload of grenades along with a flamethrower or two. They almost never carried MGs. It was always an ad-hoc formation and usually made up of veterans

[Splash]

Ok I was gonna start a thread on this but here it is.

Presently I'm screwing up my courage to begin playing humans but I figure I should get some idea on the bewildering array of configurations. Those Germans had to keep everybody unhappy -- I mean jeez.

So I'm looking and I see Volksturm with 4 Shreck. Now I imagine this is for city warfare (an educated guess). But I'm thinking that I'm out in the woods with not a building in sight -- I need 4 shreck and a scouting team -- why wouldn't I buy these guys?

Just cheap and I wanna win?

As for the Gerbels -- I kept away from them because I thought one leg would be shorter then the other and they couldn't run on level ground but now I read that they are just the thing. So again, I'm laying a trap in deep woods and I want to wipe out anything that moves within 40 metres of me -- why wouldn't I hire these guys? In that kind of scenario it would take a whole company of Brits to roust them. Am I stupid or something?

For scouting period why wouldn't I pick the smallest squad groups (7) e.g. Brit gliders split 4 & 3 -- I'm gonna lose them anyways -- why not save points?

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Correct... those would be the real Sturmgruppes. Usually all armed with SMGs and a boatload of grenades along with a flamethrower or two. They almost never carried MGs. It was always an ad-hoc formation and usually made up of veterans<hr></blockquote>

This was the standard case, but there were a few units officially titled "Sturm" this or that. There was a Sturm battalion that fought in Normandy. I think they were generally held at Corps or Army level kind of like Tiger Abeitlungs. Can anyone elaborate a little more? I know this was discussed a few months ago.

[von Murrin]

RE: Original post.

I think more people (including me) are using exotic troops/mixes because all of us went vanilla right away. What I mean is that many players are looking for a challenge or something different to mix it up a little and keep the game as fresh as when we started.

Example: I got bored the other day and played a QB. Wanna know what I set up? Too bad 'cause here you go. 1500pts, night/heavy fog, village, AI Polish Airborne, and German attack. Me? I took Gebirgsjagers.

It was really different, really fun, and really humiliating.

Nathanael

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

In a 1500 pt game between excellent CM players, has anyone ever seen puny 81 mm spotters??<hr></blockquote>

81mm are excellent for making smoke. They are definitely worth purchasing. I don't know if 'excellent' players use them, but I'd bet they do.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> In such games, everyone has 105 mm or 120 mm arty helping their reinforced company.

Indeed, I have used 155 mm arty in 1500 pt games. Some cool to see my opponent's platoons melt into slag. I can buy the best troops with the best of 'em. <hr></blockquote>

A company on the sharp end, attacking or defending, would often have 105s or even 155s on call on the Western Front 44-45. That's not ahistorical or strange at all.

Even if you are playing what is a 'company' sized game, your particular attack could be part of a greater effort. Just imagine that you are going in the lead for a battalion attack, or an even larger push.

[ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]</p>

[Graaf Spee]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf:

How is that supposed to work? The smallarms are given permenently to troops and you can't shift them easily, except maybe MGs.<hr></blockquote>

What I was thinking about was that it wouldnt be unrealistic (gamey) to have a couple of platoons to simulate this. One way to simiulate this is to buy a platoon or two of vet -insert your favorit gamey unit here- together with your 'vanilla' force. VG SMG should work fine, maybe VG fusilier(sp?) or maybe even the hated Gebirgsjaeger to simulate stronger squads.

Thoughts?

/Kristian