Rocket Fodder Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 I hate to beat a dead horse but... In an earlier post I moaned about how my two 76mm AT guns failed to load up Tungsten after bouncing 4 rounds (each) off a Tiger caught in an ambush. The range was about 200m to the tiger. So, at the end of that turn even though my AT guns didn't load T they managed to knock out the Tiger. I can live with that. Next turn. A panther that was trailing about 10m behind the Tiger manages to reverse out of the line of fire of both guns into a nice defensive position. One of my guns still has bead on him though, the range is 308m. The tank and the AT gun trade about 5 rounds. My AT gun misses with 1 and then bounces 4 off of the panther. Does it load up T? No. It then takes a direct hit from the tank and the war is over for that crew. Please battlefront, change the logic behind Tungsten. My gun had perfect aim, bouncing several shells off of the tank. I bet if it had loaded T on that last round, that tank would be history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Good post Has anyone ever played a scenario in CM when they ran out of tungsten when they really needed it? well I haven't because the tanks carrying tungsten usually get KO'd before they can use it all up. Could the AI logic of using Tungsten simply say, USE the damn stuff the first time the gunner sees one bounce off any enemy AFV? OR even eaiser can we as the player make the choice in the orders menu as to when to load the damn stuff ourselves (ok that is Micromanagement at its control freak finest, but what the heck, I thought I would ask ) OK in reality, maybe they are loading another reg AP round when they are watching the round bounce, but why not tell the AI to load tungsten as the second round loaded after watching one bounce off the frontal aspect of any enemy AFV? Great subject heading for the thread! -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombardier Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rocket Fodder: I hate to beat a dead horse but... In an earlier post I moaned about how my two 76mm AT guns failed to load up Tungsten after bouncing 4 rounds (each) off a Tiger caught in an ambush. The range was about 200m to the tiger. So, at the end of that turn even though my AT guns didn't load T they managed to knock out the Tiger. I can live with that. Next turn. A panther that was trailing about 10m behind the Tiger manages to reverse out of the line of fire of both guns into a nice defensive position. One of my guns still has bead on him though, the range is 308m. The tank and the AT gun trade about 5 rounds. My AT gun misses with 1 and then bounces 4 off of the panther. Does it load up T? No. It then takes a direct hit from the tank and the war is over for that crew. Please battlefront, change the logic behind Tungsten. My gun had perfect aim, bouncing several shells off of the tank. I bet if it had loaded T on that last round, that tank would be history!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Absolutely!!! We all know quite well that your open turret TD’s will bite it real quick if they don’t get their kill shot in. Theoretically, that was the design philosophy behind the TD’s wasn’t it?!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Look, those guns only have a limited number of rounds of T to use. They cannot be wasting it on every Panther or Tiger that strolls along! Clearly, they were waiting for a target more worthy of their precious HVAP ammunition, and if they have to die while waiting, so be it! Jeff Heidman P.S. Yes, that was sarcasm! Has BTS said anything about this issue? Steve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Look, those guns only have a limited number of rounds of T to use. They cannot be wasting it on every Panther or Tiger that strolls along! Clearly, they were waiting for a target more worthy of their precious HVAP ammunition, and if they have to die while waiting, so be it! Jeff Heidman P.S. Yes, that was sarcasm! Has BTS said anything about this issue? Steve?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL I knew it was sarastic the minute I got to "They cannot be wasting it on every Panther or Tiger that strolls along!" They sure do like to hoard that tungsten don't they?! I think the AI looks at it this way, every round must be worth at least case of good whisky on the black market after the day's action is over so the more they have left over to trade the bigger party they can have -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 At 200m, a 76 firing regular AP against a Tiger is pretty close to a sure thing, isn't it? (As close as it gets in CM, anyway.) Unless you were at a very unfavorable angle to the Tiger. Panthers, though, are another story. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 IMHO, a TC will save his hyper-shot for the Big Bad Cats. PzIV's and other lesser AFV's can be penetrated with 76 and even 75 rounds. When facing Panthers and Tigers, if the first shot doesn't kill them, you're dead. Who would risk that? The TacAI should grab T no later than the second shot when facing heavy armor. On the other hand, I feel that tungsten rounds are too prevalent in CM. Some units, especially regular tank units, didn't see tungsten until very late in the war, if at all; tank destroyer units having the priority. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Fodder Posted October 10, 2000 Author Share Posted October 10, 2000 I envision my AT crew picking their precious tungsten rounds out of the crater left by the panzer and carefully wiping the dirt and mud from each one lovingly. Retreating slowly behind friendly lines, they spit polish the rounds until they are like new, just waiting for the the mother of all tanks to make an apearance so they can roll the rounds down the hill towards the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sitting Duck Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 What logic would you propose for using Tungsten? As I recall from another post, the current logic is more numbers based, yes? Something like this: y=total AP rounds x=total Tungsten rounds x/y = rate at which Tungsten rounds used Is there another logic that would be better? What about a rule that says whenever an AP round would be used, always use Tungsten rounds first. What about a more complicated rule taking into account range, vehicle type, whether previous shot "bounced?" How would a tank commander want it done? Do they engage in some rough and ready rules or more complex rules? I'm not sure. Maybe they actually do tell the gunner to make every 4th (or whatever) AP shot Tungsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 I had a Sherman 76 bounce 4 rounds off the front of a Panther at 800m. I didn't check to see if it had T rounds but it probably did. In the end my tank died and I killed most of the Panther crew with internal flaking. The Panther is now a pillbox that will be avoided carefully. All in all when I play the Americans I NEVER count on the T rounds or even consider thier existance when I plan a tank attack. A change would be nice but until it comes I will live with what I got. Jeff [This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 10-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Hell, why worry about it? If you shoot tungsten you'll only miss the target, anyway. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Fodder Posted October 10, 2000 Author Share Posted October 10, 2000 Here is the logic I would imagine I would use in "real life." 1. Find the range with regular AP. 2. If the first one or two regular rounds fail to inflict damage, load T. 3. If T fails to inflict damage, run like hell. Of course other factors come in to play. For instance, the AI should never fire T at half-tracks or light tanks even if the first couple of rounds fail. Also, I would model panicing crews. If my lonely AT gun is happily firing away at littl e old half-tracks and then a Tiger rolls up 200m away, immediately load up a T and fire. The crew would be panicing at this point. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longshot Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 On the other hand in a recent email game I was in my Sherman 76 popped over the top of a ridge just as a Tiger VI and and Jagdpanther came over another ridge off to their side at about 600 meters range. I had ugly visions of my precious reserve Sherman platoon going out in a blaze of glory. I ordered them to kick it into high gear and run for a flank hoping to outrun those slow turrets. As it turned out the Sherman bounced 3 shots off the jagdpanther before knocking it out at the range of 580 meters with standard AP. I assumed they had used tungsten but none was expended. The Sherman even took an 88 to the turret front which bounced off (much to my opponents chagrin). The lucky Sherman crew then engaged the Tiger and knocked it out with 3 rounds none of which were tungsten. The Tiger was knocked out at range of 620 meters. The point is the standard 76AP is capable even at long ranges of penetrating many targets. Now I'll agree if it was two Panthers on that ridge it might have turned out different.A tank crew seeing a Jagdpanther and Tiger on that hill at long ranges might be inclined to think, "better safe then sorry" and load T as soon as possible. I know I was crapping my drawers when I saw those ugly things out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 HVAP tungsten rounds were not very common at all. Changing the game to use more tungsten would be ahistorical. I think alot of Allied players are looking for an unrealistic quick fix to get around the realism. There's a reason American tanks didn't like to face the german heavies head on. It was not because they didn't want to use their HVAP ammo, they just usually didn't have any. If anything the use of HVAP ammo would start occurring with a little more frequency in the last couple of months of the war. Try using WWII tactics of going for a flank shot. -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 how about less Tungsten overall, but when you have it, it's used? PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 They're not asking for more common T but for it to actually be used when they have it! ------------------ And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve My website! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf: In the end my tank died and I killed most of the Panther crew with internal flaking. The Panther is now a pillbox that will be avoided carefully. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> internal flaking?!! hahahahahahha i love it, we can't kill yr tanks but we can mess yr crew up real good... ------------------ "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeski Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 How do you know if your tank or AT gun has T? All I ever see is 25H 10A 2S. Will it show up in there as 3T?? I've never seen it. Just as well from the sounds of this thread. It dosen't get used anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>They're not asking for more common T but for it to actually be used when they have it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree but at the same time, you shouldn't expect to see much tungsten available in 1944. -john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Look, those guns only have a limited number of rounds of T to use. They cannot be wasting it on every Panther or Tiger that strolls along! Clearly, they were waiting for a target more worthy of their precious HVAP ammunition, and if they have to die while waiting, so be it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No doubt, a deadly PzII may be around the next bend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger: I agree but at the same time, you shouldn't expect to see much tungsten available in 1944. -john<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree totally. Prior to the last few months of the war, T should be very rare in anything other than AT units. However, most (but not all) dedicated AT assets (TDs, AT guns) should have a couple of rounds, and it would not be unheard of for a Sherman here or there to have a round or two. As a rought guesstimate, I would say your typical AT asset should have 0-7 rounds witha median of 3, and most 76mm armed Shermans 0-3 rounds with a median of 0. Not nearly as much as they currently have. Bu they should be relatively quick to use what they do have. No crewman is going to wonder about the odds of his AP round penetrating that Tigers glacis at 236.5m at an angle of incidence of 26.8 degrees to vertical. Tanks should be much more likely to waste a HVAP round on a target that may not have needed one rather than using an AP round on a target that should get a HVAP round. I think 95% of all Sherman crewmen in WW2 are pulling out the silver bullet anytime they see anything higher up the food chain than a PzIV, and who gives a damn whether an AP round might get a kill after a few hits. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 I would like to see less tungsten overall, but the conditions of its use changed. I think "bracketing" (firing regular AP until a reliable hit is obtained) needlessly complicates the issue. I would rather see it based on a combination of the estimated % to hit and the target's armor rating. Crews would be less likely to fire T at thinner armor (even if they've already bounced a couple of rounds off it), but more likely to fire T at something like a KT even if there's a less than perfect chance to hit. You can always get lucky, you know and you may not always be around for that second shot. ------------------ Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milt Smegma Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger: HVAP tungsten rounds were not very common at all. Changing the game to use more tungsten would be ahistorical. -john<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BTS have said repeatedly that CM is a game not a simulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 I agree that a magic bullet is worthless if you never fire it. I wouldn't have a problem with an allocation scheme like: * With a new target, always fire regular AP until you get a hit. * If you hit with AP but don't penetrate and continue to engage the same target, fire T until target is killed or you run out. This might be tough to implement depending on what kind of memory units in CM have, though. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 This is a "bug" inherent to all low ammo situations, at least as I have experienced it. I have seen tanks not fire HE at low levels and instead just use MGs. It is really noticed with "T" rounds as you always start up low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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