Steve Clark Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 As I have begun my readings on WW2, a thought occured to me that relates to CM2 (and CM3, CM4). A lot of us here are interested in military history, specifically with the focus on 20th century warfare. However, even those of us that are very knowledgable about a particular war, we still tend to focus on (or are more interested) in PARTS of that war. For example, with the American Civil War, some are more interested in the Eastern Theatre than the Western one; or in my case, not all that interested in the naval battles. The same is true for WW2, but in a greater way because of the immense scope of the war. My point that relates to CM2 is that I suspect that there are those that are primarily interested in the battles of Western Europe as oppose to the Russian Front. There are those that are not interested in any of the CM games because they prefer the sea/land combats of the Pacific. Or some just like aerial combats and don't like tanks, thus will be interested in simming the Battle of Britain for example. Or some will wait until the desert tank battles and invasion battles of CM3 and skip over the slog-fest of CM2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 But you also must factor in the fact that MANY people here aren't really gripped with the Western Front and feel that the East is where the real war was fought. I for one was never interested in the Western Front and never researched it in any detail. The Eastern Front has always been my interest. So, I think a lot of wargamers will buy CMwhatever because the ENGINE is good and not because of the theatre... If I based decisions solely on theatre I'd never have bothered with CM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Yeah if it was 'battle of the gerbils' and it was well made and so on.. i'd probably buy it mmm gerbils.. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I also find my main interest in "The unkown war", (eastern front). I am using the western front as a training tool while waiting for CM2 and quite the enjoyable tool it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I have to admit that the Eastern Front never carried much interest for me but for about the last year or so I have read more and more about it and I must be honest and say that now I can't wait! And don't forget that CM-2 is bound to have some cool new features that we have all wanted but which weren't possible due to baseline system requirements. CM-2 will have much higher requirements and as such will allow Charles much more freedom to do all those little things which bump up the 'Cool Factor'. JSII's ...Mmmmmmm That and watching Kwazydog turn into a raging animal as he does the hundreeds of textures that will be required will be fun too! Whats that Charles? You want me to find realistic weapons sound effects for all the guns AND native Russian speakers?!? AGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Steve- My main interest has always been West Front. (Personally I've always found it difficult to get into the Eastern Front stuff because I don't see any good guys or bad guys there.) Regardless, I will definitely buy CM2 because it will be, well, CM2. Likewise CM3 & 4, etc. I think your point is valid, but I don't see "theater-preference" being too much of a problem with the CM series. Most especially with CM2 - it's been my experience that the vast majority of WWII historians/wargamers are far more interested in Eastern Front stuff than other theaters. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveman Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I understand what you're saying, but as noted above I think a lot of WWII buffs are more interested in the Eastern front. As a game, I think there's perhaps more potential in the east too... both sides had their victories and setbacks. Technology played a larger part too, as improvements were made on both sides to counter the other over the years. Compare that to CMs focus on post D-Day western front, where things are a little more one-sided. ------------------ "You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast [This message has been edited by Daveman (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager 7 Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I see the makings of a theater preference poll here. Anyway, IMHO this board has already shown considerable interest in CM2 largely because it will deal with the Russian Front. I am personally very interested in the Pacific as I have done considerable "hands on" battle studies there. Yet I always come back to the War in the East as it was THE titanic struggle during WWII and literally dwarfed everything else in size and scope. As an American I know most of my fellow countrymen (not necessarily wargamers) are uninformed or uninterested in that aspect of WWII likely because no Americans participated. However it is a facinating study in military history. Count me as one who is anxiously awaiting CM2 not only because of the new bells and whistles it will contain but precisely because it will address combat on the Eastern Front. Out here.... ------------------ When the situation is obscure....attack! CGen. Heinz Guderian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spcwrnglr Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 In regards to Matt's post about how CM2 will have a better engine with more "coolness" factor to it. That's great, but I would hate to see what happened to the Close Combat series happen to the CM series. The Close Combat series got more and more advanced, and more and more fun, but the original theatre, which I enjoyed the most, was left with the comparatively shoddy game engine. If a newer, better, "cooler" game engine is made, would it be possible to retro-fit it to the Beyond Overlord campaign (for us Western Front buffs?) Otherwise we are left with our favorite theatre in the most outdated game engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Interestic topic. Has to admit I'm basically an eastern front guy myself. The intensity and ferocity of the eastern front (IMO) is what interests me. I've talked with quite a few people interested in WW2 over the years and most people that know their WW2 (more than me that is) tend to be drawn to the gigantic scope the eastern front really was. Just my opinion anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 The Western front was maybe where all the latest and greatest kit was employed, but once the Allies had established a beachead in Normandy, the war was really a foregone conclusion, because the Germans simply didn't have the resources to fight on two fronts. Combat Mission specifically avoids this issue by modelling small-scale engagements where the outcome isn't so certain. The Eastern front was a far larger conflict, and it was fought tooth and nail - so not only are the engagements going to be tense, so is the strategic background. It's not just a "Germans stop retreating for a moment to put up a fight" scenario, or "Americans fend off small German counterattack". I think a lot of Westerners (myself included) know more about the Western front simply because our own forces were involved there. If we lived in Russia, we would be far more conscious of the immense battles which were fought there, and understand far better how important they were. So, in other words, don't dismiss the Eastern front. I think Combat Mission 2, game though it is, will probably teach us a lot about the war that we didn't know. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 hehehe, The East front was the biggest and baddest of all time. The sheer size of it is mindboggling. I always laugh when people talk about how rough the western front was. The front line was so damn long. Russia 40 times the size of France, hehehe. There is a great scene in Stalingrad, where the german soldiers are on the train to the front, and there are complaining about how long they are on the train, and all you see out the windows for hours is endless plains. Kind of scary going that deep into Russia. You know it was not going to be pretty walking and running all the way back to Prussia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted August 21, 2000 Author Share Posted August 21, 2000 Another thought. All things being equal, wouldn't geography (terrain) has something to do with it or is the scale of CM such that you don't get a feel for the land? What I mean is that with CM1, you have rolling hills, forests, farmlands, rivers and such. Do those add to the gameplay experience? With the Eastern Front, I believe you would have more open terrain representing the Euroasian Steppes. With CM3, you would have a very arid (flat and rugged) terrain for N. Africa and just plain rugged for Italy. Apart from the tactics, which would be superbly modeled in all CM games, would everyone here play a tank battle in the desert just as you would play the Bulge or Kursk? [in my initial post, I didn't add the comment that regardless of the theatre, CM will be immensely playable. I thought that was a given.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willys Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 It's not just a "Germans stop retreating for a moment to put up a fight" scenario, or "Americans fend off small German counterattack". David pretty much nailed it IMO. West Front combat does amount to periods when the Germans stopped retreating and put up a fight. If you wanted to capture the typical "battle" on the West Front you would have a game board where retreating German columns are blasted by artillery, hosed down by air strikes, and overrun by outnumbering Allied armor. To get a feel for this Read the book "Death of a Nazi Army". It details the rout and eventual encirclement at Falaise of two German armies. The allies basically blasted a huge hole in the German left flank and ran through it with armored divisions. This is a pretty accurate picture of the hellish position the Germans were put in. Very accurate historically, but who would want to play that as the German side in a game? Not me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dirkd1976 Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I just wanted to throw in my support for the eastern front. I spent four hours on Saturday watching all four episodes of "The Greatest War" on the history channel, and I must say that I am all fired up for CM2 and the Russians. To me the eastern front was much more interesting than the western, especially Stalingrad. Hopefully there will be alot more variation in the buildings in CM2, along with the ability to connect them together. I can't wait for some truly epic house to house battles..... ------------------ Never mistake motion for action - Ernest Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greybeard 101st Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Not being a wargamer in the strict sense, the Western Front interests me because I know much more about it and can relate to it, since my father and uncle fought there. I have a side that I want to play (American), where as the Eastern Front althought much bigger in scope, doesn't have the same personal interest for me. I am sure I will buy it and play it, but not with the same gut feelings against the enemy as in CM1. On one hand you have the Germans and Hitler, and on the other Stalin and the Russians, a fairly hard choice for me, since neither Hitler or Stalin are men to admire as is Patton, Marshall, Eishenhower, Churchill, etc. This is my dilemma with the Eastern front, any game I play I have to relate to one side or the other, usually the "good" guy. Much like watching a Football game where I don't like either team, pretty hard to get into. These are just my thoughts, coming from a casual wargamer. ------------------ -kill 'em all and let God sort them out- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>JSII's ...Mmmmmmm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "...However, even when confronted with its most fearsome opponent, the JS 2, the Tiger came out on top. It's powerful quick-firing cannon, which fired a combined shell and cartridge, was a major advantage since the JS 2 used a shell whose charge was seperate" and "The thousand-odd Tigers used on the Eastern front destroyed more than 8,000 enemy armour." Tiger I on the Eastern front, by Jean Restayn. ISBN 2 908182 I highly reccommend this hard-cover book for any Tiger tank fans. Over 500 pictures, many never printed, along with many colour plate illustrations. -johnS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I just hope someone can make a game that captures the fighting in the PTO in s comparable manner to Combat Mission.. I would also like to see Antietam done,along with some other Famous Civil War battles. That being said, I drool simply at the thought of T34's and Pz III's duking it out on the Steppes... ------------------ -Rookie Cactus Air Force Homepage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger: "...However, even when confronted with its most fearsome opponent, the JS 2, the Tiger came out on top. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No argument here, but they are cool looking! Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I mirror Fionns opinions exactly ,So i wont bother pasting the entire thing . Also as has been noted the Eastern front has both sides having strategic intitative at some point or another with a very real chance of losing the entire war. Just one additional point which was pointed out in a book I read the other day. The battle of Kursk seems at first glance to be a battle for an area around a city, that is unitl you look at the scale.... This single "Battle" took place in an area larger than all of Britian, when you consider the tanks and artillery peices per mile of front is starts to give you an idea of just how vast this front was. _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 On one hand you have the Germans and Hitler, and on the other Stalin and the Russians, a fairly hard choice for me, since neither Hitler or Stalin are men to admire as is Patton, Marshall, Eishenhower, Churchill, etc. This is my dilemma with the Eastern front, any game I play I have to relate to one side or the other, usually the "good" guy. Much like watching a Football game where I don't like either team, pretty hard to get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Duke Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 For those of us who dont speak either German or Russian...CM2 will be a bit amusing! "What'd he say?!? My leg? Tanks? Let's get the hell outta here?" lol Can't wait! ------------------ One shot...One Kill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveman Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Heh heh heh, hadn't thought about that. Maybe CM2 will let me brush up on my Russian. I almost minored in it in college but never used it... now I can barely remember the cyrillic alphabet, let alone say anything. ------------------ "You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 As long as CM2 isn't rushed (by us ), I think it will be a compelling buy for anyone interested in WWII tactical combat, as is CM1. Just a quick look at the number of folks that are asking for the Pacific, N. Africa, etc. will show that people will be interested in a quality WWII game no matter what theater it is in. The biggest problem I can see is finding supporting documents/maps for historical scenarios! ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Two quick points. First, the balance between the combatants and their equipment will be gripping, whether it be scrappy early war Panzers facing a mixed bag of crappy tanks and fearsome T-34 and KVs or the late war Ferdinands and Tigers hoping their long range guns can keep the hordes of T-34s, SU-xx, and JS at bay. Command and control issues, 2-man turrets, radioless tanks, and the varied terrain and weather on the Ostfront will make for fascinating new tactical challenges. I expect gameplay to be even more varied in CM2, with great long-range duels on the steppes and grueling infantry fights on vast forested maps. Some of the East Front scenarios in the Squad Leader series had a very cool hopeless Thermopylae feel to them, with eight German squads defending vs. battalions of Soviet troops, that is nothing like the West front. Second, I've found that I've learned tons about the Western Europe battles from playing some of the very well-researched scenarios and operations. Those and this board have prompted additional reading of things like Doubler that I'd never heard of before. With CM2, I expect to learn a great deal about the war in Russia, meanwhile oohing and ah-ing at the best wargame around. I can't hardly wait... [This message has been edited by RudeLover (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts