Jager 7

MG 42 Muzzle velocity = 2,480 fps M1917A1 .30 MV = 2800 fps M1919A4 .30 MV = 2800 fps M2 HB .50 MV = 2930 fps I knew someone was going to go looking for it and I had it handy. Ref "Small Arms of the World" Ezell (Smith)

Good topic but it has been addressed here before. Having the facility for the FO or "spotter" to designate the number of rounds to fire on a specific target would be more realistic. Currently in CM the FO can fire through "the minute" turn or cancel fire or shift those fires. If no changes are made and the FO is not suppressed or killed he will continue to fire until the ammo is expended. This is somewhat abstact but in reality reflects the FO's ability to "Repeat" the fire mission and keep repeating his Fire For Effect until the desired effects on target are achieved. FOs do assess and report target damage. If they aren't happy with what has been achieved with a particular Fire For Effect they can "Repeat" the FFE. I for one don't think we would gain much by having the more realistic ability to designate the volume of fire for a target. We really have that ability now..we just have to canel the fire at the one minute increment. Not a big deal IMO. Out here...

X-OO, Great to see a fellow arty guy. Greetings from Ft. Sill. I attempted to explain some of these questions a few months ago but must say you have done a better job. I agree with your statements. The adjustment penalty for moving the rounds outside the 100 meter radius is a big issue for me. As a competent FO can call the adjustment in seconds and as you said the FDC can make their data adjustment also in seconds. There should be no additional time penalty for adjusting rounds once the fire mission has begun. Now, if the FO is suppressed and can't continue or loses his LOS to the target he should be penalized something if not having to reinitiate a call for fire all together. Cheers, ------------------ When the situation is obscure....attack! CGen. Heinz Guderian

In PBEM: Rule 1 - Never surrender! Rule 2 - If you can't achieve a total victory then fight for the major victory. Rule 3 - if you can't get the major victory then struggle for the tactical victory. Rule 4 - if you can't get the tactical, then go for the draw. Rule 5 - if you can't get the draw then fight so your opponent doesn't get anything more than a tactical victory. Rule 6 - Never surrender! I think everyone likes winning, but the quality and challenge of the good fight is the most important to me. If I go by the ideas above I may not win..but I always have a good game.

Greetings, Arty spotters (FOs) don't usually just call for fire and leave it at that. They observe the fire, adjust it when necessary, and keep repeating the Fire For Effects until the desired effect on the target is achieved. If the spotter is pinned down and can't see the effects it is possible or even likely he is wasting valuable arty rounds...which is not in his or his supported unit's best interest. Basically if he is suppressed by enemy fire he will have a hard time doing his job. The remedy; be careful where you place him and try to keep him out of easy reach and sight of enemy infantry types. Hope that helps. Out here....

Medieval, Here are a couple websites you can check out. They carry most of the good kits and paints available. http://www.blitzkrieghobby.com/ http://www.ehobbies.com/? Have a good one.. Jager 7

U.S. Marines, 1981-present. Currently instructor for Marine Artillery Scout Observers (0861) at Ft. Sill, Oklahoma. Semper Fi

Ooorah and Semper Fi fellow Marines...Happy Birthday.

RD does has a good ladder system but so does Tournament House. Many players of all experience levels and user friendly site. http://tournamenthouse.com/CM/

Have to agree. Have played and am playing several Infantry-only PBEM ladders and find them challenging and rewarding. MGs shine, infantry mortars and arty spotters shine...infantry manuever shines...it's great! ------------------ When the situation is obscure....attack! CGen. Heinz Guderian

A good TOT is more than just a surprise bombardment, although it is that. A TOT masses the fires of several batteries/battalions or even regiments on a specific target. Most folks (Allies or Axis) in WWII couldn't accomplish effective TOTs without having the various firing units co-located. TOT missions take good preparation and close coordination between the controlling FDC (Fire Direction Center), the subordinate FDCs and the firing units. The Americans in WWII enjoyed a very flexible and efficient FDC that was at the top of the heap and had the communication assets to make it all work. Hope that helps. Out here... ------------------ When the situation is obscure....attack! CGen. Heinz Guderian

You guys at T.House have a good set up and I enjoy the ladder matches. The tourney sounds fun. ------------------ When the situation is obscure....attack! CGen. Heinz Guderian

Not to be a stickler but there is no reason for a firing delay with adjustments of anything less than 1000 meters. (yes, count the zeros) An FO can and does shift his fires several hundred meters if his target location is in error with no noticable delay from the FDC or guns. In CM this would mean that once an FO started adjusting he could shift effortlessly throughout the entire battlefield with no time penalties...realistic...very..but probably not good for our favorite game. Now he should be made to establish another call for fire after he has effectively neutralized his target to his satisfaction. In other words, if he hurts an infantry squad or HT taget he should have to end the mission and begin again for a new target. But for adjustment purposes, before the FFE goes in he should be able to literally adjust anywhere on the map with no time delay constraints except for the mission processing delay of the first adjustment round. I know this will cause some a fit...but it's realistic. Out here...

BH, I agree that in combat there is much more confusion and many more things competing for the observers attention. Yet being able to spot his own round is fairly easy as he should know where to expect it and he can also request "splash" which is a five second "head's up" sent to him by the FDC specifically to help him spot his own round in all the clutter. As for fusing. The only other fuze that one might use that may reduce the spotting would be delay. .005 seconds after the round impacts. That forces the projectile under ground or causes it to ricochet if the surface if rock or concrete. Delay is usually used against troops with overhead cover or troops in a tree line in order to avoid tree bursts. It's also used to adjust fire in Danger Close situation (within 600M of friendlies.) For HE fuse quick (point detonating) is standard for adjust and in effect. I still maintain that at the ranges used most often for CM battles it would be hard to find an obstruction that would totally block the smoke from a normal HE round. As a sidelight to your other point about lots of smoke and dust being kicked up..this is not modeled in CM at all. After about four rounds of HE in any one area LOS through that area would be completely obscured until the smoke cleared. The more volleys fired over several minutes and you would have a complete LOS obstruction that would persist for several minutes after the last volley was fired. AS far as I know the lazy W pattern was what was used by the Americans during WWII. It was called a parallel sheaf. Today we use a circular sheaf with 100M radius generated by the FDC's computer. Hope that adds something to the discussion. Out here....

Great article IntelWeenie, thanks!

Great posts by BH and John K., Haven't digested all of it yet for commentary but will address the dirt/smoke/debris kicked up by arty rounds. Most of what you see in a live fire is not necessarily dust but smoke from the HE mixed with dust. Even in rocky terrain there is still a considerable smoke cloud visible from quite a distance when using HE. It hovers in the air for a length of time depending on wind conditions. Yesterday we adjusted 105mm rounds into a treeline along a creek bed (1800 meters distant from our OP). The trees are approximately between 10 to 15 meters tall. From impact it took only about two seconds to see the smoke created by the shell and to spot it for adjustments. 1800 meters is far more than most artillery engagement ranges in CM. I have adjusted 155mm arty rounds in the desert at ranges of 7,000 meters with little trouble during daylight. IMHO unless an FO in CM is trying to adjust arty fire onto a target behind a large hill, there are no logical LOS obstructions to 105mm and larger arty rounds in CM. Out here...

I agree, big battles are hectic and take a long time to plan moves and execute. Smaller battles are much more "personal", and managable. Another aspect of this is to try an "infantry only battle". I am playing one of those right now PBEM and it is great. I have nothing against larger battles but I am recently tending toward battles under 1500 points. Out here....

A couple months back someone on this forum suggested "In Deadly Combat - The Memoirs of a German Soldier on the Eastern Front", by G.H. Bidermann Well, I went to Amazon, got the book and just finished reading it. Wonderful book which I strongly suggest to anyone so interested.

Wayne, At the company level your FO is your arty representative. He is the go-to man for all questions concerning arty support. At the battalion and higher they are not in the call for fire business but the "liaison" business. This means they have a bigger part in planning fires for manuever and coordinating fires to keep the arty hitting the bad guys and not the good ones. They also keep track of where all the company FOs are and which battery is supporting whom etc. Now, if you are asking is a company CO able to call for and adjust fire...yes, to a degree. They've had classes in it and many from time to time did call for and adjust artillery or mortars. As a rule though this only happens when the FO is no longer servicable. A company or platoon CO wouldn't have the degree of expertise of a trained/experienced FO nor would they have the flexibility of the real FO as he works with that battery daily etc. A CO is also busy taking care of his men and trying to figure out what to do next. He likely has little time to get on the hook and call for fire unless it is a dire emergency. Hope that helps. Out here....

Excellent research AaronB. At greater ranges the penetration advantage of NGF is negated and it all becomes plunging fire. I have been inside a Japanese concrete bunker that had taken a direct hit on the outside of something large...don't know what. On the inside...not even a crack in the smooth wall or ceiling. Out here..

Claymore.... "CM modeling of artillery vs pillboxes DOES NOT require any fixes/patches." I like the way you put that.

FO's if they goof up and get spotted are pretty easy for experienced troops to ID as FOs. Too much radio gear, binos...small team, perhaps maps are in evidence. In CM the only time I have IDed FOs is when playing the AI and they are manuevering with the infantry units at fairly close range. Now, here is something to ponder. FOs don't usually work in a vacuum. They really need to be quite close to if not directly attached to a platoon or company HQ to be effective. They get their orders and commander's intent from the Commanding Officer of the unit they are supporting. FO's don't just go off on their own and shoot things up as a rule. They are tied very securely into the big picture of fire and maneuver and are in the support business. Having radio comm with that HQ is not realistic as they usually are right next to or in very close proximity to the CO. For an infantry company manuevering to contact, that mortar and arty FO are within arms reach of the captain. In the defense things could be a little different and the OP could be visited off and on by the CO. Always exceptions to this but the company CO usually has his FOs close at hand. Something to think about anyway. Out here....

Gen. Gavin, I gave up on War of the Rats but highly recommend Enemy at the Gates. War of the Rats is a novel and Enemy is oral history at it's best. Great book! Out here....

You the man Matt. Keep up the good work and thanks for the boost this board needed. Out here...

Jarmo, If I had to come down on one side or the other I would say IMHO all concrete bunkers in CM should be resistant to Indirect fire arty,(81, 105, 150, 155mm)but not resistant to a direct hit from a 14" NGF or a similar vision slit shot by a tank or bazooka.