Guest aka PanzerLeader Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On one hand you have the Germans and Hitler, and on the other Stalin and the Russians, a fairly hard choice for me, since neither Hitler or Stalin are men to admire as is Patton, Marshall, Eishenhower, Churchill, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Greybeard, you don't have to take Hitler and Stalin alone. Some officers on the EF were men to admire, such as Joukov, Manstein, Guderian,... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger: "...However, even when confronted with its most fearsome opponent, the JS 2, the Tiger came out on top. It's powerful quick-firing cannon, which fired a combined shell and cartridge, was a major advantage since the JS 2 used a shell whose charge was seperate" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The IS-2 was not generaly used in a tank vs tank role.IS-2s were primarily in areas clear or German tanks or very weak in AFV suport, to break through German defense's, where its HE/Frag shells were devastating vs bunkers etc & its main adversary was German PAK guns & panzerfausts. Not to say the 122mm could not deal with German armor, as it could the ISU-122 was a very successful TD vs the Tiger & Panther with side hull & turret hits. But the ammo loadout reflected its primary role as more HE/Frag was carried then AP-T, the weight of rounds made for slow ROF as well as not enough ammunition was carried for tank vs tank engagements IS-2 generaly only carried 7 to 8 BR-471 rounds. The strength of the IS-2 was its armor, which was good enough to give IS-2 crews a much higher survivability rate then T-34 crews, 20% higher in most cases. The Soviets did a study of their KO'd tanks and found that the majority of losses had come from front turret, mantlet penetrations, the IS-2 & later IS-3 refelect the uparmoring of these areas to rectify this weakness. And I'd also add the Tiger didn't always come out on top vs the IS-2, the reason it appeares it did,is that in the reletively rare Tiger vs IS-2 engagements the success was generaly due to their superior optics, tactical manouvering Ie, side & rear shots. TigerE victories over the IS-2 were highly publicised Ie, Carius's exploits,(heres an similar instance to Wittmann's VB run). Grossdeutschland's Tiger Kompanies 2nd encounter in May 1944 in Romania where they managed to knock out(the publicized version) & 3 IS-2s after the original GD Tiger section engaged & had to withdraw because their 8.8 cm L/56 Pzgr.39 rounds bounced at 2500 - 3000ms. Their are other incidents less publicised where the Tiger E came off worse. The Tiger II was another matter it could deal at long range with the IS-2, their was an example of this in an Tiger Abt war diary entry where in a local German counter attack an Abt of Panther's had engaged a dug in line of IS-2's & ISU-122's that was wreaking havok on the German Inf advance. None of the Panthers rounds affected the IS-2s at 2000ms so 4 Tiger II's were summoned, in 20 mins the Tiger II's had destroyed the dug in IS-2s and ISU's at 2000ms. But even Tiger II's were knocked out by IS-2's in their few run ins. Regards, John Waters ----------- "Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!" [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Being a Ruski myself, I can't wait for this game. Tiger, Yes, the JS2 was slightly inferior to the mighty Tiger, but what about the JS3? Will these mighty tanks be included by the way, since it is somewhat debatable whether they actually saw use? Looking at it from any side of any country, Hitler was the main "bad guy", even though Stalin closely followed. Interestingly enough, Stalin killed more innocent people then Hitler did with all his rounding up of Jews. War could have been won much easier if Stalin didn't decide to kill most of his generals. I can "connect" with Zhukov, my favorite Gen of the war. That, and a few of my great-grand parents served and died in the multitude of the Eastern Front battles. ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 Actually I would take a KV 85 over a Tiger anyday. 8) I too find no problem in "connecting" with Russian (or even German) soldiers even though I am a brit. Certainly someone like Zhukov (who the commisar was too modest to claim but I do that he was the greatest general of the war) is a facinating character to study. That said one shouldnt equate Russian or German generals with "niceness" in any way shape or form. They were members of Totalitarian societies and failure (particularly for the Russians) meant death by firing squad even for Generals. By the way for those Zhukov students there is a new book called "Zhukovs greatest defeat" detailing operation Mars in the central front launched at the same time as Stalingrad which is an interesting read a search from Amazon should bring it up and if not I can dig up the Authors name if requested. Cheers _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greybeard 101st Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 It is a given that if I play the game I have to "side" with one or the other. It is true that alot of German and Russian troops hated their supreme commanders, Hitler and Stalin. Just as many troops today hate Clinton. Like I mentioned, I do not read any WW2 material, and this is the first "wargame" I have played. I am a much more casual gamer then most of you, so please understand my feelings about chosing sides. I will most likely side with the Russians, Stalin unlike Hitler,at least didn't try to overtake the free world, not that he wouldn't want to. To me CM is a very, very great, enjoyable game, but I know very little about WW2, and next to none about most of the major players involved. How about a Nam CM4? ------------------ -kill 'em all and let God sort them out- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 "It is true that alot of German and Russian troops hated their supreme commanders, Hitler and Stalin. Just as many troops today hate Clinton." Obviously mentioning a democratically elected leader and two murderous dictators in the same breath is pretty insane but on another note can we keep American Domestic politics off the board? Particularly as I am REALLY enjoying this Eastern front thread and I dont want it closed by the inevetible "Clinton is Satan" vs "Rebublicans are Satan" sub threads that will spawn. Cheers _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 I doubt the interest will vary too much for CM2. BTS makes an excellent game, excellent games are hard to find, I am sure 100% of the people who bought CM will buy CM2. I will actually enjoy CM2 a little more because I really hate watching the Ami's die (this not being a factor in CM2), punishment for me being such a bad commander I guess. ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki [This message has been edited by Banshee (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted August 21, 2000 Author Share Posted August 21, 2000 OK, I did a search, I looked in the dictionary and even went to ask.com but I still don't know the term 'Amis'. From association, I conclude that it is short for Americans? Where did this term come about. Sorry to have interrupted this discussion. A good point was brought up about choosing sides. I believe for some players, that is a very big thing. I will find it very hard in CM1 to put myself in the role of a Nazi German soldier and in CM2, for either sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark: OK, I did a search, I looked in the dictionary and even went to ask.com but I still don't know the term 'Amis'. From association, I conclude that it is short for Americans? Where did this term come about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> German short for 'Americans'. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Andreas: Interesting German for the British was "Tommies" do you know any of the nicknames for other nationalities in the war? Rumanians and italians would be of particular interest to me. Cheers _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbo: Andreas: Interesting German for the British was "Tommies" do you know any of the nicknames for other nationalities in the war? Rumanians and italians would be of particular interest to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good question- before the first world war, the general derogatory term for the southern Europeans of Roman heritage was 'Welsche'. I don't know when that disappeared. I have an edition of Felix Dahn's 'Ein Kampf um Rom' from the late 20s/early 30s that used that a lot (was written in the 1870s though, I believe). A derogatory term for Italians that I have heard from a vet of the war in Italy is 'Itaker'. That was in use when I was young too, about 25 years ago. Or 'Spaghettifresser' (roughly 'Pastabingers'), along the lines of the French as 'Froschfresser' (Frogbingers). But I am sure the Landser's mind could do much better at cooking up invectives than that. But you see, the Americans as relative late-comers did quite well, comparatively. Russians were generally called 'Ivan', I believe. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbo: Andreas: Interesting German for the British was "Tommies" do you know any of the nicknames for other nationalities in the war? Rumanians and italians would be of particular interest to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe the Germans called them the "Surrenderi's" which loosely translated means "The guys you don't want on your flanks when the foe attacks". sorry for the very bad humor! ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger22 Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Hey, I think it's kinda ridiculess to not buy a game just because you can't relate to the 2 sides. What i think is a good game is a good game. Infact, right now i am still deciding which side (Axis or Alies) i like best. But i know in the end it won't be because i can relate to the side. Thanks, King Tiger22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 David said "The Western front was maybe where all the latest and greatest kit was employed, " Umm, I'm hoping you meant to type EASTERN Front there. The Eastern Front saw the employment of the real behemoths and most of the more interesting tank variants. The Sherman just pales into insignificance beside the Ferdinand or the IS-2 or the SU-122 or the ISU-152. Ps. Guys, it's Iosef Stalin and not Joseph Stalin... The Russian spelling doesn't have a J so unless you are going to change the name of the ISU-152 to JSU-152 you should change the mythical JS-II to IS-II. Just a small point of nomenclature. Willys, Fallaise was an ABERRATION. It seems a lot of Westerners think the war in the West was like Falaise all the time. In reality the Allies spend a good half of the time from June 1944 till the end of the war attacking into prepared defences or horrible terrain like the bocage or Huertgen. Falaise was only a week long and has been totally overblown in Western historical reports. Dumbo, Why a KV ? It's a deathtrap anytime after 1942. Dumbo, Greybeard, ALL politicians are Satans. There, that's suitably non-partisan . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 "Dumbo, Why a KV ? It's a deathtrap anytime after 1942." Hmm Now that you mention it my pro KV biase is based on lots of wargaming rather than historical evidence. Did they have a rep as being hard to get out of? I had always ASSUMED they were the better tanks (at taking on Tigers) than the T34/85's or IS2's. Help me out here. cheers P.S. Trivia quiz. What does KV stand for? Ill post the answer here later if nobody gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vimes Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Trivia quiz. What does KV stand for? Ill post the answer here later if nobody gets it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Kiril Voroshilov if i'm not mistaken. Or maybe Klamenty someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Correct Its Voroshilov that old buddy of Stalin and long term survivor of the Soviet regieme. [This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 08-21-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vimes: Kiril Voroshilov if i'm not mistaken. Or maybe Klamenty someone <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thats him Vimes, Klimenti Voroshilov who was at the time Defence Commisar & Zhozef Kotins father in law. Regards, John Waters --------- "Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 I just want to know if there will be a CMMC for CM2? And if so... giving the lack of comunication on the Russians part, will their commanders even be allowed to e-mail each other... Or will they just have to wing it? Lorak ------------------ Lorak : proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Norton Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 The East Front will increase sales of CM. That will increase the bottom line, money. That will launch the next theater of operations. Sorry to reduce this discussion to mercantilism, but that is what is going to bring CM to Russia. It is going to be a winner. In many ways, it is like the old AH add-on to SL. As many will know on this board, it was Cross of Iron. This "extention" had to be reprinted, it too had succeeded beyond the first projections. When AH decided to launch ASL, they went to the Russian front first, they knew from the conventions that it was on this front that most of the wargamers would be willing to cash in their prior investments in SL and shell out new dollars for an "improved" SL. ASL made money for AH. Not all CM players are, or were, wargamers. But most appear to have some interest in that area, or history in general (as pointed out in this topic). This game is so good, that it brings us all to the "front" and we bring many of our friends. Thus, we will be found marching in the tracks of many heading East, investing our dollars and time. If this was a company that was publicly trading, I would buy its stock, because the sale projection on the East Front are going to be more than on the West. And that gentlemen is why we are all going to go there. ------------------ "The Legitimate object of war is a more perfect peace." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dumbo: "Dumbo, Why a KV ? It's a deathtrap anytime after 1942." Hmm Now that you mention it my pro KV biase is based on lots of wargaming rather than historical evidence. Did they have a rep as being hard to get out of? I had always ASSUMED they were the better tanks (at taking on Tigers) than the T34/85's or IS2's. Help me out here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think you mentioned the KV-85 in particular. If I recall, this was comparable to the Challenger in many ways - big gun forced into a chassis that wasn't terribly well suited for it. I think the KV-85 also had an armor downgrade (vis a vis the KV-1) to improve its mobility. I think it ended up being a terrible compromise, with both worse speed and worse armor than a T-34. I'm a KV fan too - I'd love to try them out in 1941, especially the KV-2 (love that big BOOM!) - but overall, give me a T-34 (preferably a T-34/85 when available). Speed kills, and the front armor isn't that much worse, especially when you only have to face medium-velocity 50s. Mmmm.... barbecued Pz III.... ------------------ -Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatAWilson Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Eastern front is where it happened. Besides, I want to try to do an armored assault out of the Pripyet Marshes . BTW Dumbo: The KV-85 had the same 85mm as the T34/85 and the armor really wasn't that much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Don't worry Wittman got his start on the eastern front. WOOHOO lets here it for CM2 and Wittman. Wittman racked up quite a few kills on the eastern front. There was once a SP scernario that reenacted a battle where him and his platoon pulled a VB on a company of tanks and motorized infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Thanks for info over KV 85. I guess the only "plus" is the extra MG's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 What, CM2 will not get the level of sales that CM1 achieved because it's based on the Eastern Front?! You jest! IMHO, given that the CM engine is popular to both Grognards and casual gamers, future versions of CM will sell well, regardless of Theatre of Operations. Also, us Eastern Front fanatics will certainly buy it (especially as the opposing AFVs will be more equally matched)! As for Madmatt's love of the JS2 - you've gotta admit, the Matt's got fine taste (but he did forget the JSU 152). Mace (waiting in the trenches for CM2 to arrive) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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