R-Man Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Concerning the rarity of Jumbos, I just finished reading a couple of books in the last two weeks, one was a brief biography of George S. Patton, and the other a collection of war stories (including several concerning Patton's Third Army). One of them stated that Patton preferred moving his 76 mm Jumbos forward, ahead of the main tank force, to engage enemy Panthers before the main force moved into action. I do not know the exact tactics used, but it was certainly not uncommon for a detached platoon (or more) of Jumbos to enter an armored meeting engagement en-mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havermeyer Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I knew it... ...great minds... Playing Op (snip) I put a Jumbo on point (long column, single road)-- and the thing survived all ambushes and attacks through to the successful end-- seemed like the vehicle just behind him always brewed up rather than the J. ------------------ "Two World Wars and One World Cup, do da, do da!" --British Hooligan, sung to Camptown Races Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I wouldn't want to speak for them, but BTS said a couple of months ago they weren't keen on the idea of having "rarity factors" for units. ASL had some, but I don't know how realistic they were. Imagine the amount of research you would have to do. Depending on the terrain, if your opponent picked heavy armour then buy units that can surprise it or outflank it and take it out. If you are in open fields, though, you had better buy equivalent armour or lots of AT gunes to compensate, or plenty of smoke shells. If your opponent keeps picking those heavy armour units, make him/her play in high hills with woods everywhere, or in heavy fog, or at night where range doesn't help you as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dittohead: My solution to keep people from buying 9 jumbo's or 9 KT, would be to impose a multiple purchase penalty on those rarer vehicles. Tony<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My solution would be to buy 5000 pts worth of AT mines. Teach that bastard a lesson! ------------------ The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 LOL Kingfish wrote: > My solution would be to buy 5000 pts worth of AT mines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 God Enough already.... pissing and moaning about rarity and realism. There is NO game out there better than this..... give these guys a break! Not everybody plays the same .. they change points here and it pissed people off there ... if it aint broke dont fix it! Not everyone wants to be mandated as to what they can have on the battle field; if we did we would play the canned scenarios! We could play the comp pick battles and get a halftrack army! This is the only area Where we Got control over our stuff ... LEAVE IT ALONE! It isn't a very complex thing ... if ya dont like unrealistic forces specify your game up front! if you are hell bent on realism... play a canned realistic scenario.. if they aint good enough design your own! I dont buy tuns of anything -- it generally results in a flawed plan... but dont tell me what I can and can't have, and please dont keep pestering BTS about it.. TCP IP is a heck of a lot more important, than some point tweaks to suit some whiners! The whining about points from before increased the price of the humber ... to me it is now useless In conclusion.. If you dont want to play me fine ... I play an honest game >> I dont cheat.. I dont pull BS .. so if you wanna look down your nose at me because I had one or two more units that didnt meet your perfect historical army .. I say WHATEVER My apologies to those Ive offeneded now get over it! *****RANT MODE OFF********** ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Play with people who wont do such silly things. _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Getting heated I'll clarify myself a bit. I wouldn't like rarity factored in, I'm just thinking the supertanks are a bit too cheap, as so many feel unrealisticly high usage of them gives good results. I'd like the rarity mentioned somewhere. I understand many people would like to be opposed by "realistic" forces. I don't, however, have necessary info to create a "realistic" group. Is 3 Churchills and 2 shermans realistic? 10 Crocodiles? (ok, I know that one.) How many Sherman II's there were, compared to Sherman V's? Whole lot of units and me without a diploma in military history. ------------------ Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zamo: I don't see this as an issue at all. If it is agreed between two players that a game must be historically correct, then honor dictates that each shall buy accordingly. Or let the machine pick. I think that usually produces the funnest load out, largely because you get stuck with what you have, like a real force commander. Zamo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The machine picks some screwy things sometimes. I just started a QB last night against the computer, and the armor I have seen so far (which I expect is most of it - American force type was Combined Arms) consisted of an M8 Greyhound, three M5A1 Stuarts (so far, so good - I set parameters hoping for something like Stoumont or La Gleize)... and FOUR M4(105) Shermans. Not an AT gun to be seen so far. Needless to say, those M4(105) models weren't terribly effective against a high-quality (Elite, as it happens - not sure the computer should be choosing EVERYTHING Elite, but it did) German Armor force, which I let the computer buy, and was largely pleased with - though I was a little surprised to see Marders still around, there was a generally nice mix of forces, and I was particularly pleased to see that it chose 120mm mortar support for most of my FOs. This brings up a question - does the computer take the opposition force type into account when choosing forces? I question the sensibility of taking four 105 Shermans to defend a village except against pure infantry (where it would rock) but... against ARMOR???? It might be nice to have a "choose intelligently" option. I understand that real commanders often didn't get to do that, but I was hoping for opposition that had. I guess I might have better luck taking the Americans and buying it myself (or, heaven forbid, purchasing the Americans and taking the Germans) but I had hoped to get a good look at how King Tigers work out in practice, and it's harder to tell from the other side of the mantlet. ------------------ -Doug [This message has been edited by demoss (edited 07-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 R-Man, 254 of the Jumbos were made. About half were converted to Jumbo 76s SO this means a Jumbo 76 should be roughly FOUR TIMES RARER than a King Tiger . Patton merely groupd all the Jumbos he had in spearhead formations. What you don't hear about is the 90% of Bns in his Army which didn't have Jumbos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-Man Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Fionn, Thanks for the info. Just repeating what I've read. I've also read that a German commander once said that they could knock out 10 Shermans for every one Tiger they lost. The problem was that the Americans always had 11. (Or something to that affect.) Having been a Real Red fanatic in CC3, I would very much like to see some form of rarity introduced in CM. Even if it's no more than a "historical note" next to the unit in the purchase screen, or even in a readme file. Most of us don't know what the real deployment levels were of the various AFV's in the many campaigns, but would like to. Unfortunately, taking on a platoon of four Panthers with a platoon of five M4's in a Quick Battle is just no fun. As stated in a parallel post, those cats could take out Shermans at 3,000 yards. I have to flank within 400 meters to even have a chance with an M4 vs. a Panther. With the M4's costing approx. 150 points, Jumbos at 219 and Panthers and Tigers at about 200, the choice is a no-brainer. I'll take the Jumbos and kick @$$. If rarity were to be an option, it would have to be coupled with an increase in Allied point totals to approximate that "11th tank." [This message has been edited by R-Man (edited 07-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatAWilson Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Just my $.02 on the Panther. This tank was not at all rare in 44-45 with about 6000 being built in the war. I think around 13000 75/42 and 75/48 gunned Mk IVs were built. Only about 1100 Tiger Is and 450 Tiger IIs were built. So ... while an arguement can be made for rare Tigers IMHO the same cannot be said of Panthers. By mid 1944 most Panzer divisions had nearly as many Panthers as Mk IVs. Some more opinions: the Panther is superior but not invincible. Offer up its flank for even a moment and it's toast. The Tiger I can be penetrated from any aspect by a Sherman 76 from 500 yards. Since this is Europe getting to within 500 yards is usually not that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Myself, I rather like a game that has relative rarity factors available. Whether I use them or not, well, at least I have an idea when I'm going overboard. I have no problem with folks like Fionn and Steve and Moon doing all the hard work and me enjoying the results! -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 LOL Dale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 Fionn- Hey, I've had a mild experience of just how awful trying to nail down 'the numbers' for stuff like this can be - you're a better man than I for sticking to the task. Thanks! -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 Personaly I think this whole issue is not anything that should involve BTS. If ppl want to play PBEM & spend their points on all heavy tanks or TD's thats up to them. If the person their playing against has a problem with this, then thats between them to work out. Adding limitations to CM because PBEM opponets cant agree on force composition ahead of time is just plain wrong IMHO. As to adding an rarity inhibitator, or tags etc, to me thats just another waste of BTS's time again its something ppl can work out themselves, rather than asking BTS to police PBEM games, do a little research on OOBs for the time period Ie, learn while you play. Bottom line is play & play for fun!!! don't like your opponets TOE, agree on something along historical lines or figure out away to wipe out his Uber tanks, through better tactics etc. In no way does how one spends PBEM points need to be adressed & or policed by BTS. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 I am just wondering if this is the same John Waters from the Steel Panthers and East Front boards. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." New CM Site. In process of switching. Brought to you by Hardcore Gamers Daily Hardcore Gamers Daily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 Actually the grumblings on this topic are kind of out of line in a way. I love King Tigers, and if I choose to have 9 of them, well that is what will be. Everyone will have the same points to spend and shouldnt care what force is opposing him, only that they have to get through reguardless. Never heard a soldier say, "Well there is 9 Panthers, we only have 20 Shermans, that's not fair." Well there were very few battles that were ever fair. Besides, my KT usually get some sort of gun damage, so there is hope, and w/o infantry, KT's wont do that well all of the time anyway. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." New CM Site. In process of switching. Brought to you by Hardcore Gamers Daily Hardcore Gamers Daily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MantaRay: I am just wondering if this is the same John Waters from the Steel Panthers and East Front boards. Ray <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Could be.... Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 First of all, let me say what a brilliant piece of software CM is....It will only be better once I receive it (a long story and real tear jerker)! But I digress. I think one of the joys of CM is to purchase whatever force mix you want, and do battle with another player. This may result in an ahistorical outcome involving ahistorical force mixes, but hey...this is fun, and the reason we play!!! However, the strength of the game is that you can play a historical battle if you want, by either coming to some form of agreement with your opponent about unit mixes, or via an existing scenario. Don't forget that to fight a historical battle though, you need to know not only the location of particular units at a particular time, but also what equipment that unit had! Just my Aussie 2c (1c USA) worth. Mace btw. before CM borg gets me, I was already assimilated!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gezeder Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 hmmm, now that u guys put it that way - i don't like the sound of rareity in quick battles either.... still, i think a points adjustment would be nice.... like R-man said - the jumbo is a far superior buy than the regular sherman, but it's points don't really reflect that enough, in my humble opinion.... while it's nice to have an opponent that will agree with you to only choose light/medium power tanks, i think it would be great if the points payed more accuratly reflected the power of the unit. so, if you show up with 3 regular shermans, & one firefly, you'll know that if you're facing king tigers, there should only be one of them, not two. (more of a fair fight?) i don't think this is really asking for pbem games to be policed, just a request for a more 'u get what u pay for' system in quick battles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre76 Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by demoss: The machine picks some screwy things sometimes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tell my about it! I had "combined" arms an all the "armour" I got was 8 HT with only MG! Needless to say, I aborted that QB and started up a new! ------------------ André Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader: My apologies to those Ive offeneded now get over it! *****RANT MODE OFF********** <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmmm, still on caffeine. Foobar must not have defeated him yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted September 27, 2000 Author Share Posted September 27, 2000 BTT. Related to the cherry picking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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