citizen Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Whoa, I just saw some dead bodies in the POTD at CMHQ 5/1. I must be sleepy or something Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Those guys are just waiting for the snow so they can make 'snow angels'. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 I am going to assume it's all a big hoax until I hear otherwise. Otherwise, I'll be setting myself up for a big letdown. After here a zillion and a half reasons why it couldn't be done, to actually see bodies... brings a tear to my eye. Sage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 For me, seeing dead bodies brings vomit to my throat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Looks like half-time at an old-timer's soccer game. Seriously, the effect is quite good. If this is for real, is it a selectable feature, and also, does each figure represent 1/3 of a squad, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Tom, I think it all depends on the gore factor. If there is no gore (all pictures suggest this) then I see no problem. As a way to keep track of your KIA's, and gain information on them, this is a plus. I've had several heros that I would have loved to get a screen shot of... But I waited to late. Lorak P.S. I know what my PBEM opponents are thinking.. But even us losers get lucky once in a while ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub [This message has been edited by Lorak (edited 05-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 If bodies are in gore should be able to be added by those that dabble in graphic mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Whats wrong with a little blood and gore along with dead bodies? This game is a realistic representation of war is it not? and correct me if im wrong but when soilders got hit by bullets and HE shells they did bleed right? Not having bodies is like not having dead tank hulks on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Major, no disrespect but, did you vomit while playing ASL when you flipped over your MMC's? If you recall they showed casulties on the back of the counters.Its a marker thats all. To me it is the visual proof and reminder of squad elimination. *I edited this because i originally said reduction yet meant elimination, sorry* I like the decision that BTS made. It is a tasteful approach to an unpleasant reality. Im sorry, you did mean cyber dead bodies didnt you. I just read it again and I am unsure as to if you meant real dead bodies or a game marker. [This message has been edited by von shrad (edited 05-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 OK, the official poop... Yes, there is now a SINGLE marker for unit that has been FULLY eliminated. The marker is in the form of a soldier on his back with one leg up, arms to either side, and no weapon. There is no blood, and there can be NO blood as the graphics are exactly the same ones used for the "live" soldiers. And that is the way we intend to keep it. Actually, this feature has been in for a long time. November I think. The reason why we have not made this public is because we didn't want to listen to calls for blood and brains spattered all over the place for the last 5 months of development. Now is not a bad time to have it be known. Now, for a bit of history regarding WHY we put this in... The initial calls for dead bodies was confused, and counfounded, but some people that wanted to drag in all sorts of totally irrelevant reasons why bodies should be in. Do a Search and check them out. We, on the other hand, always were opposed to gore being put into the game and therefore had ZERO interest putting in such stuff simply because a certain percentage of people out there have some twisted form of bloodlust. There were also calls for all sorts of things that didn't make sense to include or were not possible due to technical reasons (framerate). So these ideas were rejected because they were in some way harmful to CM as a whole. We did think about putting in some sort of marker, but we wanted to make sure it was needed AND could be done without looking cheesy. Now for how it works and WHY we put it in... Quite simply put, *something* was needed so you could figure out, after the game was over, who did what and what happened to who. A marker on the battlefield was the easiest and best way to do that. We did not want to put in a body at first, but any other symbol would come off as being silly and trivial at best. Suggestions of a blood pool or something were, frankly, a bad idea all around. So we came up with a pose, tried it out, and instantly all Beta Testers agreed that was exactly what was needed. So there you have it! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 This better not get into a censorship thing... I fully agree that the deaths of those who died during any war should be recorded for history. One article I remember goes with the first ever published photograph during WWII of American dead, pictured in New Guinea after taking Buna. Basically, it said if we cannot look upon their sacrifice, then what have they died for. However, this is a game, representative of reality, but, it is NOT reality. The guys you see on the field, didn't die to stop Hitler, or to defend their nation, they died on a computer screen to supplement someone's ego (I'm Guilty as charged). Do they add anything to the game? Not really. They could have used markers, crosses or Rifles stuck into the ground with a helmet on them. Computer games are not arenas to display a societies morality of rememberance, only simulations. Why not have troops exploding when they are hit with artillery? Why not have a few limping around without legs? How about adding constant screeming and crying? Blood trails? Burning corpses? All of these and dead bodies happened during a war, but, I don't feel that they add anything to a strategy game. This ain't Doom folks! I also notice that MOST of those posting supporting the addition are newcomers. And most of their replies DESTROY any semblence of them being added for nothing more than gore factors. The game was just fine without the dead bodies. Don't get me wrong, I love the work BTS put into the game, and I only was reconsidering purchasing the game for 2.4 seconds. But I am still a little disappointed. Never played ASL. I understand what they are needed for. Having them face down would be a little better, not having to look at my poor troops in their lifeless eyes... sob... No, from all of the dead people I have seen I haven't thrown up. Not yet. It was basically supposed to coincide with the "brings a tear to my eye" line. [This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 05-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 KiwiJoe, this line of argument is tired and makes no favorable impression on us. Yes, gore is a part of REAL combat, as are limbs flying off, entrials falling out, blood spurting from severed arteries, ******* in pants, peeing in pants, vomiting in helmets, screaming for mother, etc. etc. To somehow thing that we MUST have all this stuff in CM is, well, repugnant to say the least. Having comic book gore only cheapens the real thing, so it does not add to the realism nor to the horror of real war. Such stuff will make the Bevis and Butthead fanatics happy ("uhhuhh, dude, did you see that guy puke when his buddy's head flew off! Cooool"), but anybody else out there that actually cares about humanity would find it deeply offensive. We wouldn't be able to live with ourselves if we cheapened death in such a childish manner. No, better to have nothing than to have something that makes death look cool. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Not to harp, but, I remember playing Wolfenstein, way back in the day, and my Dad came down to watch me play. He was truely disgusted, especially at the part where the dogs were killed. Today, he playes Age of Empires, and is pretty disturbed at the corpses left over on that game too, even though they disappear after a while. I guess it was my upbringing, I never really liked playing those bloodbath games. As Steve said, there is a place for everything, and I guess that they decided that having dead bodies (in a respectful pose) was the best way to go about it. In still pictures we can't see too much. But, it will hit you when you are playing a game and noticing that half your troops no longer move, and are staring up at the sky... If only they could see... Maybe it will be a good thing. Make us think twice before we happily send our computer men to their deaths. Hopefully Steve and Charles can make it unhackable to add any gore to the bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 I am sure that this feature will be a useful addition to the game and another example of BTS responding to the entreaties of the masses, though thankfully in a moderate way. It's not so much a realism issue but a gameplay issue as it will be especially useful for those 2man teams which can dissappear in the twinkle of an eye. As an aside there seems to be a persistent misconception among some that casualty=dead. A casualty represents a whole spectrum of different reasons why an individual can no longer contribute in that particular scenario, including the entirely psycological IIRC. It is quite conceivable that a unit could be wiped out in game terms (especially the smaller ones) and not have taken ANY killed. So a nice quiet bloody corpse strewn field, that aint reality either. ------------------ "Heaven sent and hell bent Over the mountain tops we go Just like all the other GI Joes EE-AY-EE-AY adios!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Yeah, I hated the dog killing thing in Wolfenstein 3D. It was just very wrong. And the competition between First Person Shooters to have the most detailed carnage is also pretty sickening. A little of that goes a LONG way. The way we have it now is the best compromise between game functionality and game atmosphere. Realism was never part of the equation. We thought hard about crosses and the old gun in the ground with a helmet on the top symbols. But we thought they would somehow detract from the seriousness of the simulation. In other words, we felt it would be too antiseptic (and perhaps hard to see in the case of the rifle/helmet deal). As we have stated since DAY ONE on this issue, we don't think there is any need for blood and guts, but we did need to have something in there for gameplay reasons. This is the best solution in our opinion and we honestly hope that nobody figures out a way to hack around and put in Beavis and Butthead style gore. It would really take away from the game's atmosphere we worked so hard to create. Simon, good points. We raised this a long time ago with the bloodlusters, and it is a fair and accurate statement. Nothing says these guys are dead, with or without the graphical marker. And yes, it is a great way to figure out what the heck happend to that Panzerschreck team you sent over to the left flank last turn, but can't seem to find this one. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 The body's are not modifiable as they use the same texture that the living soldiers do. If you added some sort of gore or blood to the texture then even your living soldiers would have this and it would look quite stupid. Yes, seeing bodies on the ground DOES make you pause and consider your next action and at the end of a particulary brutal battle when there are bodies strewn about you will find yourself (at least I do) asking yourself wheter it was really worth it or not. BTS has taken a very difficult and challeging situation and delivered a simple, effective and respectful solution. Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX... CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Major Tom, With all due respect, I understand what your saying. But showing one body per squad of 12 people isn't going to the extrem. I also agree that BTS could have chosen any marker to give us the units stats. I think the course they set upon meets all objectives very nicely. It's not gory, Easy to find and identify (crosses? how do you tell which side?), (helmets on rifles? hard to tell sides also unless your at level one and searching). So a body done in uniform and with taste is the best way possible. IMHO Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 I didnt need to see arms and legs flying off but I think the pool of blood idea was a good one, or even a couple red bullet holes Didnt need to be over done would've been a bit more realistic looking tho I'm glad they are in as is tho - it is still MUCH better than before Thanks for changing Steve ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: OK, the official poop... Yes, there is now a SINGLE marker for unit that has been FULLY eliminated. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BTS So if a unit loses lets say 11 guys at point A then crosses 1 kilometer to point B and the final guy gets it, the marker is placed by the final guy (? I am not getting the point if this is the case. I think its a good idea to give an attacker an idea what he paid for some property though. Also a cool "high water mark" for banzai type charges. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 This is my response to a post made by Iggi in another thread. I wanted to keep everything in one place: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And meanwhile Fionn was arguing on how dead bodies are not important. You should apply for the secret service <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I don't think Fionn knew bodies were in at that point. Charles and I played around with this, in secret, before we let the testers have at it. And then we sprung it on them without warning The thing is that a body, or whatever marker, is not necessary for EVERY casualty. That was one of the main arguments being made, and I (and I am sure Fionn) STILL disagree that this is necessary, even if it were practical or non-cluttering. But there really did need to be some way to check out what units managed to achieve when all was said and done. It also solved the problem of occasionally losing a unit without knowing it, not being able to find it, and then assuming it was MIA due to combat losses. This was never an intentional part of CM's Fog of War, and was actually undesirable. So we needed to figure out a way of fixing it. Took some time to come up with a solution that we felt was the correct one, but we are pleased with how it turned out. Having played a large game, with lots of woods and hills, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to know what my guys managed to do when all was said and done at the end of the battle. And since that was the only real game reason to have something like bodies in, we think this is a very positive feature to have added. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Lewis, in a word... correct This was one of our arguments against bodies way back when. A single marker for a 12 man squad does not necessarily represent, accurately, where the unit really got plastered. Unfortunately, it is not possible to have markers littered all over the place every time a casualty is taken. Clutter would be bad enough, but the hit on the CPU and video card would be excessive. After having played with these markers for months now, and seen some pretty huge battles, I have to say that the bodies generally, but certainly not always, give a fair indidcation as to where the majority of the casualties were suffered. In other words, our intial thinking (and yours in your post just now) was partly correct, but not to a degree that misleads you into thinking that major combat happend any other place than where it actually took place. However, this was not the main reason to have a body graphic put in. This marker is designed to maintain a presence for a unit on the battlefield even after it is eliminated. At the end of the battle you can now take stock of the accomplishments of BOTH eliminated and surviving units. That also means you will NEVER scratch your head about a unit suddenly gone from the game. Now, at least, you can confirm that the unit existed, that it is now eliminated, know roughly where it met its fate, and have a record of what it managed to achieve before being eliminated. All very usefull information, critical some would argue, that wasn't available before. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eridani Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 I think the new bodies are a perfect comprimise personally... Although I fully admit that I've been an advocate of death markers from the get-go... (6 months ago now... wow...) -EridanMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Who said it's a body, looks like a sunbaker to me If it's a Brit it's tea time. Really, it's an eliminated unit icon not a body (think of it that way Major Tom), it's a handy tool to help you manage your units and assess your performance as a commander not a sop to the red tide of carnage brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott C Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 Practical, gameplay-oriented question coming here (not philosophical, sorry): What will you see for enemy units eliminated? I assume there's the same sort of sighting levels as for living units? What I'd guess is that you get the same level of info on the unit that you had right before it died - but could you get more detail by getting closer to the body (i.e. I only knew this was an "infantry" when I killed it, but I ran a squad up to it and I now know it was a green VG SMG squad)? Thanks for responses in advance. ------------------ Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All American Posted May 2, 2000 Share Posted May 2, 2000 I was wondering if once a unit is destroyed, will you be able to click on the body to see what unit it represents. If you click on a dead body, will it say the same thing as it said when it was alive except that in the strength area, it will show that all men of the unit are WIA/KIA? All American Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts