Ricky Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 I had problems with realism in the Demo, but now that I have the full version I'm still disappointed in the realism. My biggest complaints: 1) I can move a tank within 5 meters of enemy infantry and open fire. Instead of the infantry dropping dead, they calmly walk away amongst a hail of bullets from my tank. Realistic?? Hell no. 2) A single German soldier is defending in a house. I attack the house with 6 troops. They are side by side engaging with gunfire, but the enemy doesn't fall dead until close to a minute of fighting. How can this be realistic??? 6 soldiers against 1 at point blank range!! Very unrealistic. 3) Why do soldiers calmly walk away when overwhelmed by gunfire. Shouldn't they be running?? Very unrealistic. If it wasn't for the fact that infantry take so long to die, I would really like this game. But for the most part I find the game unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 1. they aren't walking thru a hail of bullets. It is a 12 man squad running and dodging. If you can't imagine that.. sorry. It isn't real life with actors. 2. If 6 people broke into my house I think I could hold out for 60 seconds. You have to realize that just because the houses in CM don't have walls and kitchens shown. LOS in a building is kind of low. In some houses if your guys are on one end they can't even get LOS to guys on the other end. 3. see answer to question 1. You can't model every single thing in a Game. There are some abstractions. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOPork Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Too true. If you look at it like the squad has 3 men, and the houses are cardboard boxes, then sure it's unrealistic. But if you understand what it's trying to represent, it's very realistic. If you want to see a 12 man squad dodging and a house full of rooms, it's not gonna happen. I shudder at the thought of that framerate hit. -KOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Ricky, #1 Do some research. It took lots of kilograms of ammo to kill a soldier in WW2 (someone here surely has the exact number This is not C&C. Remember, the 3 figures are just a representation of a full squad. #2 Lorak said it; it's an abstraction and not SWAT 3. #3 Must be very cool elite guys in your game; my soldiers usually run when under heavy fire. I guess, that you will be very alone here with your opinion about CM being unrealistic. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanE Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1) I can move a tank within 5 meters of enemy infantry and open fire. Instead of the infantry dropping dead, they calmly walk away amongst a hail of bullets from my tank. Realistic?? Hell no. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why in the world are you moving to within 5 meters on the infantry with your tank? I would think this would be a very risky move in the first place. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 2) A single German soldier is defending in a house. I attack the house with 6 troops. They are side by side engaging with gunfire, but the enemy doesn't fall dead until close to a minute of fighting. How can this be realistic??? 6 soldiers against 1 at point blank range!! Very unrealistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How do you know your 6 men are side by side? The game does not SHOW you each individuals every move. Also, the house has interior walls that just aren't displayed. Like Lorak said, there are some abstractions. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 3) Why do soldiers calmly walk away when overwhelmed by gunfire. Shouldn't they be running?? Very unrealistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Trust me, when they have really had it, they will run. What you are seeing is a somewhat organized withdrawl. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If it wasn't for the fact that infantry take so long to die, I would really like this game. But for the most part I find the game unrealistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Infantry don't just drop dead when a big bad tank appears. I'm sorry you don't find CM very realistic. It is about as close to the real thing I want to get. ------------------ Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 This is a game...it can't be that realistic. It's a simulation. BTS had to make some abstractions, otherwise we'd be mired in micromanagement. And if you read the Design notes in the manual you will have a better idea. You want real...join the military. It's as real as it gets. former Sgt. USMC 1975 -1979 VMFA-251 ------------------ Webmaster http://www.trailblazersww2.org http://www.vmfa251.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kump Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Hmmm... seems almost trollish. What reality are you referencing your judgment on? Quake? Tomb Raider? Let me take a shot at these, even though they do appear trollish.... 1) I can move a tank within 5 meters of enemy infantry and open fire. Instead of the infantry dropping dead, they calmly walk away amongst a hail of bullets from my tank. Realistic?? Hell no. Was the infantry in the open? The woods? If so, they are retreating at a run but are slowed by woods and even if you don't see the trees, the forest is an abstract. It means, they are many trees and are obtaining cover as they run. I guess you think those three little guys (9-12) are just standing right there in the open as they appear, not attempting to gain cover. Or do you really mean dropping dead means they all just drop because the tank came within 5 meters. Get that close, you should be happy they did not knock out your tank. 2) A single German soldier is defending in a house. I attack the house with 6 troops. They are side by side engaging with gunfire, but the enemy doesn't fall dead until close to a minute of fighting. How can this be realistic??? 6 soldiers against 1 at point blank range!! Very unrealistic. 6 troops? Do you mean six squads or two squads with approximately 24 troops? Is the enemy 1 troop one figure, one squad, or one man (if you checked). One troop, or graphic figure could be 3 very nasty defenders. 60 seconds is not unreasonable. 3) Why do soldiers calmly walk away when overwhelmed by gunfire. Shouldn't they be running?? Very unrealistic. Hold on, got to check if I got CM. Nope. Well, guess I'll just hang around a little longer and waste a few more minutes here. First of all, what is your definition of being "overwhelmed". From what I have seen, most of the time troops get low and attempt to crawl to the closest cover when under heavy fire. I witness them running to cover all the time. What game are you playing? [This message has been edited by kump (edited 06-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Hello Ricky: Couldn't help but notice you are new to the forum...Seems like your loath to give any info about yourself...You know your profile is pretty sparse. I suggest that since you've just gotten the game or demo that you give it a little time to sink in. The game is very different than any of us are used to. reading the manual and doing some searches of the forum many topics is also something to do. But if it's trolling you're up to you'll find this thread to be very short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniperscope Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 sorry Ricky I cannot agree with you at all. I am playing the full ver. and the game is loads of fun. Just 1 question, what game are you comparing CM to? Name 1 land based wargame that is more true to form than CM. sniperscope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Let's try a test. You sit in a tank all buttoned up (or not, it doesn't really matter). Me and a dozen or so of my friends will stand five metres away. Now try and shoot us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt B M Deleted Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Well, let's assume Ricky is right. CM is unrealistic. But what would that make OTHER wargames. CC and West Front must be EXTREMELY unrealistic if you judge by realism. Combat Mission IS unrealistic. But it IS as close to realistic as any game has ever gotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Just echoing much of what's already been said Ricky - Use your imagination 1). Those guy's being fired on by your tank are diving for cover and dodging all over the place trying to stay alive, as i'm sure you would do!. 2). That house is full of rooms, wrecked tables, chairs, rubble. That one german soldier could well represent 3 battle-hardened SS Panzsergrenadiers backed into a corner and again fighting for their very lives. Some of the heaviest and bloodiest fighting took place during the seige of Stalingrad where the Russians and Germans would often spend days locked in fierce mini-battles (often hand-to-hand), just over one building. 3). I can't think of one occasion when my men haven't either run or ducked for cover and hit the dirt whilst under heavy fire. ------------------ COMBAT MISSIONS- The Source For CM Ops & Scenarios WWW.COMBATMISSIONS.CO.UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Well, there is one in every bunch, eh? Looks like someone doesn't know what realism is and is instead holding up CM to other games that are very unrealistic. This quote proves it: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If it wasn't for the fact that infantry take so long to die, I would really like this game. But for the most part I find the game unrealistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Biggest problem with most wargames is that lethality is way, way too high. This has made some, like Ricky, think that in WWII people died with every pull of the trigger. Sorry... not true. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder1 Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Babra...good point. I been on both sides of that fence, so to speak....if the tank is buttoned...it ain't gonna see then grunts untill they knock, usually with some kind of high explosive....hehe ------------------ this is pathfinder's evil twin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ricky: I had problems with realism in the Demo, but now that I have the full version I'm still disappointed in the realism. My biggest complaints: 1) I can move a tank within 5 meters of enemy infantry and open fire. Instead of the infantry dropping dead, they calmly walk away amongst a hail of bullets from my tank. Realistic?? Hell no. 2) A single German soldier is defending in a house. I attack the house with 6 troops. They are side by side engaging with gunfire, but the enemy doesn't fall dead until close to a minute of fighting. How can this be realistic??? 6 soldiers against 1 at point blank range!! Very unrealistic. 3) Why do soldiers calmly walk away when overwhelmed by gunfire. Shouldn't they be running?? Very unrealistic. If it wasn't for the fact that infantry take so long to die, I would really like this game. But for the most part I find the game unrealistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I point to APENDIX D of the manual, page 166, titled "a note about realism". Read it and you *might* understand. MK [This message has been edited by Kraut (edited 06-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kump Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Biggest problem with most wargames is that lethality is way, way too high. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So true. But that was the Computer Gaming Industries accepted solution for providing a "quick and fun" wargame to appeal the masses. This is when I row my eyes and thank my lucky stars that someone is around like BTS to deliver a wargame like CM. CM is proof that a deep, complex, and detailed wargame can also be great fun without distorting itself to the "Industry" standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Posted June 23, 2000 Author Share Posted June 23, 2000 Ok, I can understand the point you made about fighting in buildings, but the part about the tanks not being able to kill infantry at close range in open terrain really baffles me. And a lot of times both my troops and the enemy will *walk* away when under attack. I'm not kidding. Many times they run but many times they walk. Walking away from someone shooting at you seems very bizarre. P.S I'm not trying to be a troll, I'm just very puzzled over some of the AI behavior in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Ricky, I assume when your guys are walking away, it's after they have taken fire right? What if a few of them were wounded? Haven't you ever seen the footage of guys helping they're wounded comrades away, one guy with his arm over the others shoulders? They don't sprint. I really don't know how CM models this, or why the guys walk away slow, but I always assumed it was because some of the squad are wounded. Zamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 ok Ricky. It would help if you gave a little more information. For one, I haven't seen a problem with my tanks and hitting infantry. It seems about right to me. Now the walking... I think your infantry "walking" away means they are retreating but aren't broken. When they all out run away they are broken units. It may also be the units you see. Some units like heavy machine guns,ect.. can't run. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutbolHead Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 If you look at the end battle of Saving Private Ryan (which I'm not suggesting is reality, just a reasonable representation of realistic possibility) you can easily see how many men can be very close to enemy tanks and survive for awhile. It's actually quite dangerous for the tank at times to be that close to infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 The 'Open Terrain' depicted in CM, is, IIRC from BTS, subjected to a certain ammount of visual abstraction due to the limits on current computer hardware being able to display it realistically. CM's flat, open ground is'nt representing a pool table. So even guy's out in the open would stand a good chance of not taking casulties by finding some sort of cover if under fire. ------------------ COMBAT MISSIONS- The Source For CM Ops & Scenarios WWW.COMBATMISSIONS.CO.UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntg84 Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Thing about tank at 5m. Tank turret traverse is slow, people can out run it, dodge it, etc. I know I could out run the traverse of a Tiger tank. Plus the bow machine gun doesn't have a large field of fire. This has probably been said, but I must say it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Actually, it doesn't hurt to see it said again The truth is that once infantry close to within a short distance of an AFV, it is in deep trouble. The reasons are as ntg84 says. A tank is supposed to be a "stand off" weapon, not something that is supposed to do hand to hand combat with Infantry Generally tanks are so busy trying to get the Hell away from infantry at such close ranges that shooting at them is the second thought in their minds. Bottom line is that if you allow infantry to get that close to you, don't be surprised to be at a disadvantage. Oh, and Manx is spot on. Open terrain is not like a billards table. There are shrubs, rocks, dips, etc. for infantry to find some degree of cover. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Morgue Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Ricky, i don't know where your realism comes from , but i have real combat experince and CM simulates frontline combat better than any other game. As far a the losses of men not being fast enough for you , in CM my men die too fast just like they do on the real battlefield. And the men in CM act just like men in combat , they try to withdraw from a deadly situtation , but lots of times they panic , break ,even rout, just like men on a real battlefield. Realism , CM is full of simulated realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeer Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Is this guy mad? He would only be happy with a M-1 Garand in his hands a bullets fling over head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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