Germans, Nazis and SS -- oh, my!

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

Then you're the only sane person here, I guess. You got it across.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saying that there is only one sane person on a forum with over 100 messages is not conducive to cooling off the discussion

Henri

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Specter:

Cavscout,

What the hell have you been smoking son?

The Whermacht were in the streets of Moscow!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lead elements of the German army were able, with help of optics, to see Moscow's interior. How this translates into the "streets of Moscow" is beyond me. Napoleon I accomplished as much as the German army, look what it got both...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

If they had started Barbarossa a month or two earlier Russia would have fallen!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"If, if, if...." A very dangerous game that. Heck, what would have happened if the Allies would have atatcked the virtually undefended west German border? What if the Allies have intervened well before Poland. What if America had ignored the Japanese threat and focused on Germany. For every 'if' you can find for a victroy, more can be found for defeat.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The allies would never have gotten off the beaches had the panzer divisions been placed closer to the front like Rommel had pleaded!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

May IF Rommel hadn't gone of to see his wife on D-Day... maybe IF Rommel hadn't bungled Africa...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Hitler's meddling in the military affairs had significant repercussions for the German military forces!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was Hitler's meddling that produced the victory in France.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

They came very very close to winning!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. I'd say the Germans, once involving the Soviets and Americans had no hope of ture victory.

Cav

------------------

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."

-Bertrand Russell

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-Jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary period, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which is likely to be the more ominous for the Axis--an American decision that this is sport, or that it is business." -D. W. Brogan, The American Character

[This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 08-26-2000).]

[MadDog0606]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

Maddog, I'm glad you find some enjoyment, but I'm going to scare you now...

There are millions of people outside "our" little war gaming world that think this way. Blame the liberal media if you want.

Please refer to "One More Time" Thread. You may (or may not) find it funny.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's Maddog0606 to you Doc, only my friends call me Maddog. And the people your talking about Doc are called Crazy Dudes and Dudets. And no I don't blame the liberal media, I blame the people who read only the liberal media. You need to check out every side of a story to get a full understanding of what is going on.

By the way Doc, you can't scare me. The only things so far in life that scares me is:

1. If I divorce my wife will she take CM, my dogs, and my motorcycle?

2. Take offs and landings of planes that I fly on.

3. Cars next to me when I ride my motorcycle.

4. Will Steve and Charles cancel CM2?

Doc, your just entertainment for me. I can not honestly take you serious. I truely believe your just having some fun, just like me.

Now, keep up the good work. I think all your threads should be combined because they degenerate into the same topic, "How many people can Doc infuriate in the shortest amount of time?". If we combine all the threads we may have a chance of passing the number of posts on the HAMSTER thread.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Leland,

A very interesting and important topic indeed. I must admit I have wondered myself on this. To me, such handles are provocative and I always associate BAD from them even if no harm was meant. I think maybe some manners of taste would be appropriate.

Never forget GAMES are fun, wars are NOT.

There is reading out there if one's interested in what wars really are like and what they do to individuals, people and countries... of course, there may not be so many pictures of tigers in such books

------------------

goes forth!

[This message has been edited by Edmund Blackadder (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Arrow]

Someone may have already stated what I'm going to post here, as I've only the first and last pages. Also, I'm not trying to add to the flames (although I have this nagging feeling that I'm only dumping a drum of naplam on a fire). So here it goes:

Many of us today view Nazi ideology as the most evil thing on the earth, which is true. However, as we do this, we compare Nazi ideology to our own, and quickly assume that our 'civilized' western capitalist ideology is far better (I also agree strongly with capitalism). However, we, at least in the US do not realize how closely we came to being the next 'Nazis' in 1950. Its call McCarthism. In our grand quest to wipe out all vestages of communism in America, we became like alot the Nazis (and the Communist, for that matter). We were censoring the media, pointing fingers at each other, and finding scape goats to blame problems on. Even though I did not grow up in this time, much of what I said is in the history books, and can be confirmed by people that were in thick of it. I'm greatful that 60's came along (I can't believe I just said that), with is hippies and activist, otherwise we probably would had continued down the slope towards opression (in the name of freedom, btw. Didn't Hitler say something to that effect in the 30s?). In the 50s, if the FBI, CIA, McCarthy, and all the other crazed anti-communist organizations had gotten their way, we probably would have had concentration camps for supposed communist, who in reality was just a neighbor or coworker that pissed you off and you labeled him a communist. Now that is scarey. I think all westerners (especial us Americans) need to remember this the next time we start bashing other people's ideologies and labeling them evil.

Don't get me wrong, I love America with all its rights and faults, but it scares me to think just how close we came to becoming just like our enemies. I also think that we should all be reminded of this fact.

[Edmund Blackadder]

>Doc, your a funny guy, I like you! I really really do!! Your like comedy relief. Whenever I get bored I read the threads that you participate in. I guess I'm a weed (or is that a roach?). You make me laugh. To think that there is a person that exists that has your personality. My mind just fills with wonder and awe at your comedic timing. Whenever a thread is about to cool down you jump right in there and fan the flames to keep the show going. BRAVO BRAVO (standing applause).

I, for one, hope you never leave this forum. Tell you the truth, it was getting kind of stuffy in here with all that talk about armor penetrations; MG42's; rosters; newbies; turrent rotation rates; texture mods; when CM2 is coming out; Do a search threads; Hacking; and, lets not forget, HAMSTERS.

------------------

goes forth!

[Major Tom]

Well, it seems the total sum of Dr.Brain's rebuttles comes to...

"I know you are, but what am I."

I have heard no valid argument based on anything but heresay from your ancestors and loose statistics. A few stories told to you are full of bias and embeloshing. That happens with ANYONE retelling a period of time in their life that was so important to them. In a way, ranking the Germans as pure skum, 'Krauts' if I may, allowed the Allies to kill them without having nervous breakdowns thinking themselves as murderers for killing actual human beings.

You call everyone else ignorant, but, you make no effort to 'enlighten' us by posting actual FACTS that the German military complex was inferior when compared to the British, Russian or American military complexes.

Frankly, what you say isn't new, it is remaniscent of 1944 Allied propaganda. I'm glad that the Allies won, but, I am not willing to state that we, as, the victorious Allies, are anything close to saints.

[Mike Oberly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If, if, if...." A very dangerous game that. Heck, what would have happened if the Allies would have

atatcked the virtually undefended west German border? What if the Allies have intervened well before

Poland. What if America had ignored the Japanese threat and focused on Germany. For every 'if' you can

find for a victroy, more can be found for defeat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too true.I find that way of thinking very amusing-people want to find ways to 'play' the Germans(or whoever) better,while having their opponent make their historical mistakes.Here's a good one:if the Soviets were not so incompetently led the first three months of the campaign,the Germans would not have sniffed Moscow.

Mike

[RMC]

Brian. The babe they called 'Brian',

He grew,... grew, grew, and grew--

Grew up to be-- grew up to be

A boy called 'Brian'--

A boy called 'Brian'.

He had arms... and legs... and hands... and feet,

This boy... whose name was 'Brian',

And he grew,... grew, grew, and grew--

Grew up to be--

Yes, he grew up to be

A teenager called 'Brian'--

A teenager called 'Brian',

And his face became spotty.

Yes, his face became spotty,

And his voice dropped down low

And things started to grow

On young Brian and show

He was certainly no--

No girl named 'Brian',

Not a girl named 'Brian'.

And he started to shave

And have one off the wrist

And want to see girls

And go out and get pissed,

A man called 'Brian'--

This man called 'Brian'--

The doc they called 'Brian'--

This doc called 'Brian'!

And he started to have

opinions, oh yes opinions

deep dark opinions

about big bad nazis

and their minions

And these he expressed

for all those people

who hadn't confessed

who thought that maybe

german soldiers were the best

But they were all so wrong

that's why I wrote this song

for brian

big bad doctor brian.

cause he just keeps cryin

[Guest aka PanzerLeader]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It was Hitler's meddling that produced the victory in France.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tatata. Manstein, and Manstein only was the man behind "Fall Gelb". Hitler wanted to do a Schlieffen plan remake until his plans were caught by the Allies. Then only, as a last solution, he accepted Manstein's idea. Later he made everybody believe that he, Hitler, had elaborated the operation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I disagree. I'd say the Germans, once involving the Soviets and Americans had no hope of ture victory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However the Americans only "entered" the war in Europe in the spring of 1943, and only landed in Italy in september. Plenty of time for the Germans to produce a victory or even a draw in Russia! Fall Blau, Kursk, etc. And they weren't ridiculous fighting the Soviets! They could have pulled it off in both cases.

And finally:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So true. The loss of Moscow would not have lead to the capitulation of the Russians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A very debatable point. Moscow was a key communications' center, rail center, military center, industrial center, etc. And anyway taking Moscow in October supposes that the Wehrmacht has already destroyed a large portion of Soviet troops.

Yes, maybe they wouldn't have capitulated, but had Moscow fallen, the Soviets were fighting a losing battle...And the Russsian people's morale would have received an important shock. The Germans would have won the war in the East before summer 1942.

[Guest machineman]

I've heard that 'the capture of Moscow wouldn't have mattered' argument before also.

A few years ago I caught the trans-siberian train across Russian from China. The thing that really struck me was there isn't a lot behind Moscow. It took us about a week from Beijing travelling west before we hit anything more than forest and the odd mining city, then suddenly it seemed we were into productive land and the capital. All the railroads and roads spiderweb out of Moscow, it seemed to be the hub of everything, which would also be a problem if it was captured, much more so than in Napolean's time.

Sure the Soviets could have fought from Kazahkstan, etc, but they wouldn't have had much of a country anymore.

The way it was they were sending out peace feelers halfway through the war (mid 42 or something), but Hitler wouldn't settle for less than total victory and the Soviets reeled back from the edge to win.

[Naja]

The debate about WWII is very simple: "Are the Germans human?" If not, Dr. Brian is right; end of debate. Therefore, what happened was freakish in the human experience. Therefore, any person associated with "freaks" is a subhuman and deserves to be treated accordingly with disrespect and contempt and can usually be spotted right away by a person with advertised high intellect. Further more, intellectuals and politicians will never send innocents to war again for personal reasons except in the case of selective moral outrage. Hmmmm... But if "Germans are human", then the reality is that it probably will happen again and turning the SS etc. into freaks with "war genes" only will cloud most peoples' ability to recognize a dictator's madness until it's too late. To look at WWII objectively is the only way to prevent such a disaster, but when you do like most people you find out that you were spoon-fed pablum and there are many difficult questions on both sides. With a lot of political positioning for self-gain and people like Dr. Brian will never convince me that babies and pregnant women killed by "Bomber Harris" etc. shared in some kind of collective guilt. The problem with all of WWII is the propaganda machine is still running. It suits many different causes and countries. If a new Hitler came on the political stage we would probably say he feels our pain and builds great highways. First recipe for disaster - we need to be in a depression and have riots in the streets between lefties and righties before our benevolent dictator saves the day. Also, don't think for one instant that most politicians don't secretly emulate him, being a populist is in fashion.

P.S. Sajar's story is real and he lives in Paris as a recluse - will dig up article and post it.

[Wesreidau]

RMC! Excellent, truly excellent.

Blessed are the cheese-makers.

[M Hofbauer]

you guys crack him up

[Aussie Smith]

Smile

I’ve read this post now with a smile here and there, an occasional twinge of agony and a few gasps of pain.

It makes me wonder why so many bright people will try to debate a fact that is by its nature emotive. We all respond to different motivations about how/why we do things – this thread has tried to garner from many of us the attempt to turn an emotive issue into an exercise of logic, however, I’m drawn to try to (without bias) answer in kind to the question “Why do I play the Germans?” and to also try to highlight a few points that have been debated on this question to date.

My Psyche compels me to support the underdog – perhaps the convict heritage of being a Australian compels me to – that or the fact that in 1941 Rommel (The Desert Fox) singled out Australian and New Zealand troops for their gallant defence of Tobruk (where he was defeated for the first time) which most historians now view as a more important victory in relation to Rommel’s psyche (he started to try to second guess the enemy after that) than the allied victory at El-Alamain (sp). Also as I’ve mentioned in another post – their (The Germans) equipment looks so bloody cool – whether or no it was mechanically better will be debated till the end of days .

There is one inescapable fact that all seem to be missing in this thread – that is “That every single individual soldier in any army can be the best – there is no limit on any soldier to be better or worse than he can be at any one time.” It’s a bit like the saying “Every dog has his day.” Where I’m leading with this is that be it Aussie, Yank, Pom, Gerry, Ruskie, Frenchy, Kiwi etc the individual fighting man has the same basic ability to be the best. What separates the wheat from the chaff is in how the training of the soldier is undertaken. The German Army (incl. Waffen SS) had the most advance infantry and armoured training schools in the world at the commencement of the war – and throughout it (though the British in 1943 started to adopt a similar approach (to a limited nature in their specialised units – Parra’s, Commando’s)) where the emphasis was placed on the ability of the individual soldier to react and think independently when away from the chain of command. Simple yes! But a theory not employed by most armies until post 1950. Too many accounts to post here support this but in general the Brits, Russians, French etc tended to rely on the officer class for infantry leadership and the Yanks on their experienced NCO’s. En-Mass these theories worked until the officers were killed or the NCO’s incapacitated with the unfortunate consequence being that there would be entire units of men waiting for leadership and therefore not responding fast enough to the changing tactical situation around them. The Germans on the other hand could respond much faster to a tactical situation based on their training methodology – hence the urban myth about the soldiers being superior.

The second important difference was in the ability of German Officers to excel in tactical battles faster than most of their foreign counterparts. While it was hamstrung at a strategic level (micromanagement of command) at a tactical level the German army excelled – The German middle officer class was taught to rely on the ability of the individual soldier (something most foreign armies at the time were loathe to do). I read somewhere in this thread someone discount the importance of the Franco-Prussian War – it was after this war and the associated lessons contained therein that the Officer Class training was fully restructured with two schools being developed – General Officer Training (focusing on unit tactics) and Staff College (Strategic leadership) it is a testimony that this training regime is that which most western army officers now attend (as I have ).

Germany would never have won the war – the Staff Officers knew this in 1940 and this was the primary reason that Hitler sent a formal peace proposal to Britain in that year (it was defeated by 3 votes (if I remember correctly) in the British Parliament (I wonder the outcome for poor mother Russia if it had been accepted).

Anyway I’ve drawled on long enough – Happy CMing all.

Craig

[This message has been edited by Aussie Smith (edited 08-27-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Er... I suppose I should close this one up, even though people seem to be having fun with it

So many threads, so little time... better to spend the time on other things in my opinion.

Steve