Germans, Nazis and SS -- oh, my!

[L.Tankersley]

Ok. I will probably regret posting this, but ... ::throws caution to the winds::

As has been pointed out in a few recent threads, there is a significant segment of the wargaming population that seems to display a certain fascination with Nazi Germany in general and the SS in particular. I'm not talking just usernames or preference for playing certain sides in CM; at game conventions I'll often see a few people wearing T-shirts lauding for example the SS Das Reich division's "world tour" listing major engagements as though they were concert dates.

First off, let me say that I don't consider people that engage in these behaviors evil (at least, not solely because of these behaviors ). But I would be lying if I said that I fully understood what motivates this sort of posturing. And I'm curious, hence this thread. Several possibilities spring to my mind:

1. Dark humour. I'm pretty sure that's what's behind e.g. the T-shirt I mention above. Not something you'd trot out in the general public, but among other wargamers you can get away with this sort of "in-joke crossing the line of good taste."

2. Fun toys. The Germans have lots of cool toys to play with when you're talking WWII military hardware. Lots of different vehicles, powerful weapons, thick armor.

3. The underdog factor. Germany took on the world, and made a good game of it. In CM: BO's timeframe, the Germans are on the defensive and strategically speaking on the ropes, but yet still capable of inflicting serious losses on their assailants. It's always easier to root for the perceived underdog, and it's more fun to win when you're expected to lose, overcoming the odds. Peiper is another example -- regardless of his possible involvement in/responsibility for war crimes [NOT something I want to debate or discuss here], he commanded an important spearhead during the Bulge offensive, and then ran out of fuel, was stranded and had to hold out as long as he could. Last-stand, desperate throw-of-the dice kind of material, and inspiring/interesting from that standpoint.

4. Shock value. Some people like to embrace controversial or shocking views simply to provoke a reaction. There's an online game (probably more than one, actually) in which periodically a group of users will don screen handles of Nazi leaders, or put -SS- in their names, and start spouting anti-Semitic rhetoric. Until the admins slap them down, anyway. Most of the time these are just kids acting out, testing boundaries.

5. The badass factor. Related to #2 and #3 above. The Germans made a decent stab at conquering the world, and had some really cool toys. It's more fun (in a sort of fantasy-wish-fulfillment sort of way) to be the biggest swinging dick on the block. The SS in particular have the reputation of being the meanest, toughest fighters around, and this is only magnified by their, shall we say, predilection for intolerance.

6. Ancestry. German descent, relatives served in German army, etc. Should be sufficient to explain side preference (and German-sounding user name ) at any rate.

Now, I don't want this to turn into a big flamefest. But I _am_ quite curious about what motivates some people to adopt this sort of what I'll call "pro-German" stance (with no intended implication of e.g. sympathy with Nazi ideology) in the context of wargames in general and CM in particular, and this forum seems like it might be a good place to get an answer. So I wonder if people (particulary those that may fall into this category) might provide a little feedback about my suggested possibilities above, along with their thoughts and motiviations. I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if we didn't get into debates of the relative validity of these various motivations (and I at any rate won't think the less of people if they say that "yes, I chose this username for shock value").

I apologize in advance to Steve for creating a thread that will probably end in flames; hopefully at least we'll get some insights and understanding before that happens.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Well I was trying to stay out of this crap but it seemms its pretty unaviodable since ya pretty muuch included me in point number 4 although the motivation behind my name has nothing to do with that point

I took the name beacuse of two reasons

1 the SS clan was forming for CC2

2. It sounded better and more intimidating than PanzerLeader alone

no more no less

Im not a nazi dont support them, skin heads or any other factist orgainization, My grandad fought against the nazis in WW2

This IS JUST A name... any body reading more into .... well I feel sorry for ya the war was over in 1945. All this is about for me is tactical competition and its a shame that some blowhards have to cause such crap on the forum! (not u tankersly)

I think their uniforms looked kool and liked their equipment I play both sides in cm although in CC2 i definitely preferred germs cause allies sucked bigtime in that game. (although i became quite adept with them)

IF some of your really think Im a nazi cause of a name then you're quite clueless IMO.

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Daveman]

Thanks for writing such an articulate response to the recent batch of flame-bait going around.

I would have thought your comments were a given to anyone participating on a WWII game forum, but perhaps it's good to have spelled them out. Yes, there are those who might take things too far... but what group doesn't have it's extremists.

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"You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast

[Jarmo]

1. Underdog factor. Although not around in this game.

It's so much cooler to be on the losing side.

2. Überdog factor. Tiger. Tiger!! Tigerrr!!!

3. Darth Vader factor. The real reason.

But I really play both sides about as much.

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

This again, well here's my .02 cents. First there is the warrior heritage. But if they made cool Native American wargames, you would probably see my name change to Tanaka or Little Turtle. Wargamers love that Warrior spirit. Many great commanders have tried to turn military units into elite fighting formations. These units don't differ that much from country to country over time. The Spartans, the Panzer Truppen, and the horse armies of the east all kicked some major ass, and kicked ass out of porportion of their numbers. Sometimes these units are lead by evil men, I don't know many adults who extole to the good old days of them. Sometimes these units fight and destroy evil. All wargamers should be ever vigilent to evil, in whatever form it takes. I have noticed several racist, asshole folks on the ZONE.com. I wish there was something I could do about them but all I can do is mute them and wait for a sysop to ban that person. You the same cat who brought this up on the SP:WAW forum? In closing some people use callsigns from the animal kingdom. And I know some women who freak out when they see a tiger take down a deer. And complagin that its so sad. Its just life. But you can't put a value judgment on a name, only someone's character.

[Hamstersss]

Tankersly,

I agree with you wholeheartedly, good post!

[Gen-x87]

For me it is because of the following reasons.

1. German army was really quite efficient, this is never explained in Western history books. When I learned about WWII in school it was mostly. Germany invaded Poland, the allies banded together, Japan attacked Hawaii, the US joined and we kicked some Axis ass!

In a way this is my way of point a big fat middle finger at the propoganda machine that continues to this very day. And a way to say hey it was not all rosy after Normandy for the Allies.

2. Damn they have cool uniforms and even better looking weapons. Tanks look much more menacing and tough when compared to a Sherman, I dont think General Sherman would have been proud of that tinderbox on two tracks.

3. Under dog factor. I mean common lets face it, once the U.S. got involved the Germans were just over powered with brute stength in terms of numbers.

4. that dark side feeling. I mean come on they were after all the closest thing to satans army that we have seen in some time on this earth. The Army of Darkness is what some call them and that sounds quite interesting to command.

Gen-x87

[howardb]

You know I don't know if I should laugh or cry, this thing is just too stupid. Yes I admire many of the German soldiers (hell even Nazi's) during WW2 (yes that's what you read), not because I think they were good people but because some where excellent soldiers. Humanity has always lauded successful soldiers and the Germans had it's share, some weren't even nazi's, they fought for their country.

It goes without saying that every normal human being is disgusted by what happened by the hands of SOME Germans so I don't see the point in bringing it up.

[MadDog0606]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

2. Fun toys

3. The underdog factor

6. Ancestry.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2. I like the German equipment. It may be "a piece of sh*t" like Moriarty (the character in Kelly's Heros, not the poster on this forum) said, but I like their looks.

3. During the time period covered by the game the Germans do have a tough time of it. And I have this thing for underdogs.

6. Does having Italian Ancestry count?

By the way, I do play as the Allies. I play mostly the US side. I've learned new respect for the Sherman tank when used properly.

[Hamstersss]

quote:

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By the way, I do play as the Allies. I play mostly the US side. I've learned new respect for the Sherman tank when used properly.

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That would be not at all, right?

[pzvg]

Hmm, let's see I'm half german, use the shortened form of the panther as a handle

must be a nazi lover

I'm from Georgia, in civil war games I use the name Longstreet, fight for the South

must be a racist

Actually I'm a pretty average US army vet with lot's of respect for my grandfathers

(one on each side in WW2) because I know what they went thru.

I don't dislike anyone, or much of anything

I think Us marines were badass, I think the Tiger,Panther,and T34 rocked, I think the Sherman was a good motorcar and a lousey tank.

I find that the hate being spawned by people

WHO HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN is funny, some people lost relatives in the war, yep roger that, on both sides friends, on both sides

the quote runs "War is hell" for those who don't understand, now I don't fall into the calibre of education that some folks on this board display, but then again, I don't display the ignorance of some of the folks on this board.

I do however have a suggestion to make, if one can tolerate such from a lowly landser as myself.

If it bothers y'all that freakin much, get gone, don't let the door hit ya in the @ss, ya might as well leave 'cuz I'm staying and I will not tolerate the thinly disguised attempts to put "your own spin on how we play this game" I might want your opinion on the camo scheme of a vehicle, I certainly did not ask for your opinion of the war, evil or even for that matter rap music.

If any body has a problem with that, well, it's your problem, not mine.

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Pzvg

"Murphy's law of combat #10, never forget your weapon is made by the lowest bidder

[Hamstersss]

Pzvg,

I think what these guys are missing is that feeling to truly lose a war. Shelby Foote mentioned this in his books, that southerners are the only Americans to know defeat. He discounts Vietnam as being too isolated and too far away, both physically and psychologically. We southerners got beat, handily, by some of the most despicable and effective tactics in modern history, militarily and politically. As a result, we have a social understanding of war and defeat that most Americans don't. My family got killed and scattered, just like the Germans, Russians, Poles and Chinese. My cities were burned and subjugatged. Its hard to have respect for what that means to a people when your people haven't gone through the same thing. So cut 'em some slack, when we sack New York in the next Civil War, they'll begin to understand.

You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-25-2000).]

[R-Man]

Prior to CM, I always played the German side in wargames. Partially because I am of German descent, but particularly because I liked the ability to “change history.” In CMBO, however, I never play as the Germans because I don’t find it as challenging as playing as the Americans. Brewing up a King Tiger with a bazooka (as I did last night ) is much more gratifying than beating up on Shermans with the big cats.

[MadDog0606]

quote:

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That would be not at all, right?

--------------------------------

You making fun of me ?

The Sherman does have a faster turrent speed (in the game) then the German tanks it faces. So if you have crews with equal experince spotting each other at the same time (say a Sheman 75 and a PzIVh) and the turrents need to be turned (both turrents have to travel the same distance) to aim at the enemy tank there is a good chance the Sherman will get the kill.

You don't sit and have a slugfest between Shermans and German tanks. You keep those Shermans on the move until you can get a flank or rear shot at the enemy.

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Steve Clark]

Elijah...and what will you be fighting for, my friend?

[This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Guest mch]

"underdog factor"-I'd say that covers alot

of it.The rest of it..well,it'd take a

long time to type!

P.S.:A similar phenom. exists with the ACW

and the confederacy.Living in the south,I

tend to see alot of it.A good many books

have been written about this.Most of them

verry thoughtfully written and should

intrest anyone who wonders at the motives

behind these preferences.

BTW,I currently enjoy playing the

Tommies and Canucks.

[This message has been edited by mch (edited 08-25-2000).]

[The Commissar]

The SS and most German armed forces in general were the toughest, most well trained, and proffesional fighting men the world has ever seen. Even though they were "evil" (or more like led by a delusioned man for a hallow cause), I respect them for what they were: excellent soldiers.

I often read WW2 literature, everything from tactics to biographies of generals from the era, sometimes Allied and sometimes German. One day, I brought a book about the (in)famous Johen Peiper into History class.

The teacher (an overall good Jewish guy) saw what I was reading and gave me a look as if I was holding a big sign that said "I want to throw you in an oven". Part of the blame was mine I must admit, I should have thought ahead about bringing Nazi related matereal into class when my teacher was Jewish. Although I still feel part of the blame was his, sine I am not and never will be a Nazi of any sort.

Live and learn that some people just don't look past the obvious, I guess. Too bad, since some of the men fighting for Germany were great warriors for which they should be given their due respect.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Hamstersss]

I cannot turn my sword on my native country. Who, pray tell, would you fight for, Steve?

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You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins.

-Hakko Ichiu

[The Commissar]

Oh, and even though I am of Russian decent, I usually play the Germans in CM. Not because I hate my own people, but because German squads butcher American ones in a head on fight! Well, from my experience anyway.

Maybe it has something to do with that whole stra-tiy-gy thing or whatever it's called

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[L.Tankersley]

I'm not sure if it's necessary, but just in case I wanted to add a clarification about my original post. It's not my intent to pillory anyone for using German or SS-related usernames; no offense was intended and I hope none was taken. I'm just trying to understand the motivation because it's not one I share. [i tend to be pretty "detached" in my wargaming; possibly because my close family hasn't been directly touched by the war, I look on the games as tactical (or strategic, or whatever) problems and derive my enjoyment from trying to triumph over adversity rather than from some kind of identification with the participants. You could file me under #3, although I'm flexible -- there was more than enough adversity in WWII for _all_ the combatants.]

Oh -- and for those of you from south of Mason-Dix: "...drink your drinks in Dixie cups, for the South shall rise again!"

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Leland J. Tankersley

[howardb]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

The SS and most German armed forces in general were the toughest, most well trained, and proffesional fighting men the world has ever seen. Even though they were "evil" (or more like led by a delusioned man for a hallow cause), I respect them for what they were: excellent soldiers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Killer post Commissar. My thought precisely.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

I dint take any offence Tankersly...the post said SS inthe name and that covered me .. so I felt obliged at this point to explain so there was no confusion

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87:

For me it is because of the following reasons.

1. German army was really quite efficient, this is never explained in Western history books. When I learned about WWII in school it was mostly. Germany invaded Poland, the allies banded together, Japan attacked Hawaii, the US joined and we kicked some Axis ass!

In a way this is my way of point a big fat middle finger at the propoganda machine that continues to this very day. And a way to say hey it was not all rosy after Normandy for the Allies.

2. Damn they have cool uniforms and even better looking weapons. Tanks look much more menacing and tough when compared to a Sherman, I dont think General Sherman would have been proud of that tinderbox on two tracks.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to disagree with number one. The German army MAY have been really quite efficient in certain areas but it wasn't army wide. Everyone marvels at Germany's 'efficient' Panzer forces but they always forget that those mechanized forces were a small fraction of the German army. Overall the German army was plagued by its inefficiency. So much of it relied on horse power or feet to move it around. The German army as a whole was hampered by its overall lack of motorization and mechanization.

As for number two, it may be true that the US didn't have the most menacing tank but they did have the tank that was one of the most widly produced and did win the war. The Germans were designing a new tank for just about everything that came along. The US settled on one basic design and was determined to mass-produce it. The Germans would have been better off, IMO, selecting fewer and less-complicated designs and building as many as they could instead of producing a few highly technical beasts.

Cav

[David Aitken]

CavScout wrote:

> The US settled on one basic design and was determined to mass-produce it.

Ah, the Ford ethos. Ironic that Ford refused to cooperate with the American war effort.

David

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There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

The SS and most German armed forces in general were the toughest, most well trained, and proffesional fighting men the world has ever seen. Even though they were "evil" (or more like led by a delusioned man for a hallow cause), I respect them for what they were: excellent soldiers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but this generalization is so broad as to fall into the big stinky barrel labeled "pure bilge water".

Were the Germans tougher than the Zulus who could run 50 miles and fight a battle at the end of it?

Were Volksgrenadier conscripts better trained than the U.S. and British soldiers who won the Gulf War?

Were they more professional than the Roman Legions that conquered most of the known world?

Were they better soldiers than the IDF, which has won four full-scale wars against enemies with a combined population 40 times greater?

Maybe you should pay a bit more attention in history class and not allow yourself to be seduced by all the black leather and big guns.

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe