Ned Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 When watching the movies, the arty countdown counts slower than the turn. Roughly half the speed. Anyone else get this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Almost all the time, but the speed varies a lot (sometimes 1 to 1, other times it seems like 10 to 1). I guess this is to simulate the uncertancy when calling in arty. Hawk ------------------ Our's is not to reason why, our's is but to do and die! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Countdown goes a lot slower if the observer can't see the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 I know it takes longer to initially call arty if you can't see the target. But when it say's 3 mins, I expect 3 mins. If it's going to take 6 then it should say 6. Not sure about it simulating uncertainty either. The manual doesn't say anything about it being uncertain. If it was simulating uncertainty then surely it could be some time either side of the '2 mins'? I do seem to remember when I'd installed on of the patches (1.04 I think) the problem went away. But with the next patch it was back. Then I can't be sure as the time between those two was only a week or so. [This message has been edited by Ned (edited 11-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 The main issue is that the arty is still raining down when the 60sec countdown is done. Now that's frustrating when the turn is OFFICIALLY finished and you are on the receiving end of a big screaming chunk of metal... ------------------ And NO Bauhaus I didn't say SELF EXPLORATORY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I think they are just "clearing the air" so to speak. If I am guessing correctly, artillery shells that are inbound are allowed to impact and resolve their results in the turn of firing. If BTS had to "remember" where the shells were in mid-air, it becomes a data issue, file size issue, etc... OTOH, I too have been ravaged after the 60 second mark (240mm rockets from a Werferbrigade). Just think of it as added suspense... ------------------ To the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hawk: Almost all the time, but the speed varies a lot (sometimes 1 to 1, other times it seems like 10 to 1). I guess this is to simulate the uncertancy when calling in arty. Hawk <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree THere is fog of war and the expereince level of the FO is a factor in how long it takes. I like the Fog of War factor a green FO means it takes longer to call the arty in, but how much longer is not exactly detailed in the game. some times the minutes are 1 : 1 and sometimes up to 1 : 10 I really like the uncertainty and the way Fog of War is modeled its done quite well I think. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 Ok I know different experience levels take different amounts of times to call in arty. I've no problem there. The FOW explanation doesn't ring true though. Ok, FOW is great, everything else that is uses FOW to represent itself does so fine. You hear a light tank/halftrack - you get ??'s for the contact. You hear infantry - you get similar ??'s and a vague description of the unit. If it's FOW that causes the time error in arty why do they have the countdown represented so accuratly down to the second? Surely it would make more sense to have it represented less exactly, go from 3 mins, 2 mins, to 1 min and leave it at that. Even have it say 'approx' or have ?? somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Just use the rule: IF (LOS to the target is blocked) THEN (countdown takes twice as long) and you'll be fine usually. Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonito Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 Well it takes longer under some circumstances .. thats ok But if the spoter say 1min. and it takes some rounds, that is not ok! maybe a bug? (1 minute is one minute ... even if I do not see my enemy, right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 This CM artillery timing thing has annoyed me so much that I'm changing my signature. See below. ------------------ I'm still waiting for Godot and my artillery barrage to arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 Bonito - my point exactly. Glad I'm not the only one, thought I was going mad there. Dschugaschwili - so if I can't see something things will take twice as long? Good stuff, I'll remember to close my eyes next time I'm in bed with my girlfriend. Should stop her muttering about 'whatever happened to ladies first'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonito: Well it takes longer under some circumstances .. thats ok But if the spoter say 1min. and it takes some rounds, that is not ok! maybe a bug? (1 minute is one minute ... even if I do not see my enemy, right?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is a FOW issue I believe. Basically what it does is introduce some presumably realistic uncertainty into your planning process. Large calibre arty was controlled at higher levels in the chain of command. Imagine the following: you have been asked to attack some minor target, but because there is a lot of arty available you were promised some corps level arty support, present in form of a spotter. Now unfortunately the Germans did not know that your Corps CO did not plan on anything else happening when giving you that and lauch a strong attack at a critical point somewhere else on the frontline. You don't hear about it, and it does not affect your attack directly, so you still have to go ahead. But Corps has now decided that the 8inch batteries promised to you are better employed defeating the German attack. Meaning you go down in the merit order of support and have to wait longer to receive your fire. And that is why one minute is not one minute. I am fairly certain that for lower level assets like 81mm mortars (batallion-level assets) this delay is much less, but could be wrong. So basically this is in the game to keep you on tenterhooks a bit, and to make your planning more difficult. Which is good. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 Can't really see that happening. IRL there are lives at stake here. If the countdown reads 30 seconds, and is part of a carefully timed assault, and then doesnt arrive for another minute or so the results could be disasterous. What's the FO's/arty controllers excuse. "errr, well I know I said 30 seconds but I actually meant 2 mins, sorry" I can see no reason why time should move slower for FO's. If it's FOW then it should be reflect it as such in the countdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I'll chime in on this one,I'm going through this as I type,I've waited at least 5 mins. for a strike that said it would splash in 3 mins. My FO doesn't have a direct LOS to the target so this seems to show that LOS does seem make a differance in the amount of time the rounds take to impact. I'm guessing this simulates the amount of time it takes the FO to do his calculations and map reading and then pass them up the line to the firing batteries so they can do the same and then get the shot off. ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ned: Can't really see that happening. IRL there are lives at stake here. If the countdown reads 30 seconds, and is part of a carefully timed assault, and then doesnt arrive for another minute or so the results could be disasterous. What's the FO's/arty controllers excuse. "errr, well I know I said 30 seconds but I actually meant 2 mins, sorry" I can see no reason why time should move slower for FO's. If it's FOW then it should be reflect it as such in the countdown.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well it all depends on command and control - the FOO is not necessarily the one giving the final command. He sends a request. I believe this can be overturned with nothing he can do about it, and yes, then he would say to the local CO 'Sorry guv, I promised you 30secs, but now it is longer, hold on a minute'. The FOO is a lowly Lieutenant, noting more. The FOOs we have in CMBO are not there to simulate a fine-tuned walking barrage, BTS has said that again and again. The argument that there are lives at stake is irrelevant, because the gunners would try to save lives elsewhere that were deemed to have a higher priority than the ones of your lot. Tough luck. It is not like they would go for a tea-break or a union briefing instead of shooting. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 Well if that's the case why isn't the ETA of the arty adjusted to reflect it's proper time? The FO's have radio's and are in pretty constant contact with the arty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I have to agree with Ned on this matter, and for one main reason: TOT (Time on Target). This common technique allowed multiple batteries to have their first rounds to drop on the same location simultaneously. Thus, the target goes from nothing, to being immolated be all manners of shells instantly. With the varying times that the FOs have, it is impossible to utilize this technique. I understand FOW, but not in delay, and here's why: An FO would not be determining the time it would take the barrage to fall, he is just responsible for targetting. The time would be called back to him from the battery. Yes, the battery officer could be green, but now we're stretching things. So if the experienced FO is going to have an advantage over the inexperienced one, it should be in the precision of targeting, and not the time for the rounds to fall, that should be fairly (though not exactly) accurate. A green FO would cause the barrage to miss or be spread too wide, while a veteran + FO would call in much more accurate strikes. ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ned: Well if that's the case why isn't the ETA of the arty adjusted to reflect it's proper time? The FO's have radio's and are in pretty constant contact with the arty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Because nobody knows when the snag is removed? It is also possible that this is supposed to simulate bad radio connections, but I am very much unsure about that, you would have to do a search on that. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dschugaschwili: Just use the rule: IF (LOS to the target is blocked) THEN (countdown takes twice as long) and you'll be fine usually. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Question then. Can you drop arty down, when the FO doesn't see the target (i.e., no LOS)? How bad is the error or, how good is the accuracy? I didn't think you were allowed to do this. You would need a LOS to drop arty, but, am I correct to say you DON'T need a LOS? Thanks in advance! ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Posted November 15, 2000 Author Share Posted November 15, 2000 Ok then, if they are unsure as to when the snag is removed it should say something like "recalculating", surely not just count slower. To reiterate my point about the FO being in constant contact with the arty. If the FO is killed then the arty stops immediatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 If it would just say "ETA" instead of "Time" then no one would be confused, but I'm guessing that it's hard coded into the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ned: The FO's have radio's and are in pretty constant contact with the arty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ned, because, it the mad minute of battle, the Fire Control Office at the battery has enough on his hands ... he can't be answering every little call for how long. To the small unit action occurring in your sector, there are 10-20 more along their AOR (Area of Responsibility). (abbreviated converstation may go like this) Your FO, "We're being flanked, we need that penny nickel nickel! Over!!" FCO to your FO, "Charlie company is being overrun, all assets are taken! OUT" There is no time to waste, and distraction will cost more lives. The modelling of arty, to me, seems good. But take heart. You're doing EXACTLY what low level commanders always do. Complain why they are not getting arty on time. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Croda: and for one main reason: TOT (Time on Target). This common technique allowed multiple batteries to have their first rounds to drop on the same location simultaneously. Thus, the target goes from nothing, to being immolated be all manners of shells instantly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is different than the discussion of the time it takes. It may take 2 minutes to get a Time-On-Target response, or it may take 3 minutes, or 1:15 to get a TOT mission. TOT missions are usually multiple batteries at different locations, where the time it takes for rounds to travel different distances, arrive at the same time (as you said). However, will a TOT Fire MISSION be approved for your request, that's another story, and what is one of the things modelled. Well, that's my 0.02 zlotey on this. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted November 15, 2000 Share Posted November 15, 2000 I suppose it comes down to exactly what is being modelled. Do we have an official answer to that anywhere? ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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