Guadalcanal

[Frenchy]

The Center for Military History has posted online the complete volume of Guadalcanal: The First Offensive from its official WW2 history:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/GuadC/GC-fm.htm

Also, the CMH has available online all campaign pamphlets dealing with the WW2. All pamphlets are complete with pictures and maps. They are a great way to become familiar with the Army's role during WW2.

BTS, please reconsider doing a Pacific Theater. If you take the time to read the above volume on Guadalcanal, you will see that it wasn't all jungle warfare. The Phillipines would make a great simulation with both beach, jungle and city fighting. It would be a challenge, but an ultimately rewarding one.

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Webmaster

http://www.trailblazersww2.org

http://www.vmfa251.org

[russellmz]

Meanwhile the commander of the 132d Infantry, who was suffering from malaria and the debilitating effects of the tropics, had asked to be relieved.51 Col. Alexander M. George took over command of the regiment and arrived at the 132d Infantry's forward command post at 0915, 1 January. One of his first acts was to stage a dramatic exhibition to demonstrate to the tired battalions facing the Gifu that Japanese small-arms fire was generally ineffective against a moving target. Clad in shorts and a fatigue cap, and armed with two .45-caliber automatic pistols and an M1 rifle, Colonel George inspected the front lines. He walked along erect in full view of the soldiers of the 1st and 3d Battalions. Some soldiers, unaware of his identity, shouted to him to take cover, but Colonel George finished his tour. Japanese soldiers in the jungle helped him to prove his point by shooting at him repeatedly but inaccurately.52

well...f**k...and i thought i was gutsy when i use myself as bait to attract sniper fire in delta force(i am "a smuck(skmdc)" in the team koth levels)

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/GuadC/GC-10.htm

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[This message has been edited by russellmz (edited 11-30-2000).]

[mortarforker]

Pacific Theater. Yes! I know all the objections and I admit the New Guinea Scenarios might suck ( I envision squads moving at bocage speed through the jungle before, weary and suprised, being cut down by a hidden Nambu MG.) But combat in the PTO was quite varied, Okinawa was a straight up landmass battle and the recapture of Manila was house to house. I think people's real beef with PTO is the lack of tanks, but picture this,Marine amphtracs manuvering over the coral at Tarawa. Anyway, PTO would be better than the

"clash of the titans" between Hotchkiss and PZIII tanks planned for the early war CM3

[massimorocca]

Yah lack of tanks but.. They are in few numbers in every landing , remember Colorado and China Gal, and we can see also japanese tanks attack, Guam, and as Mortarforkers wrote all those marine Amtanks. And the naval support fire, and the caves.... It's a pity!

[Hans]

Not to forget Kohima, the endless Chinese battles and the clashes with the Soviets. Attu and Kisha.

I LIKE CM infantry battles with an occasional tank or other weapon system to spice it up.

Fighting onto a heavily fortified Island might be interesting actually

CM6!

Actually I predict a "conflict simulator for the 20th century will be the final result-in about 10 years!

[Lou]

Just another vote to have a Pacific Theatre game after the Russian Front is done.

[Bullethead]

I am currently working on a scenario depicting the early phase of the Kohima Ridge battle. Unfortunately, I have to use "Gerpanese" troops and CM's terrain engine will only allow the hills to be 1/3 as steep as they are in real life.

However, IMHO it's not a bad scenario and it would be nice to have feedback on it so I can make it better. BTS has, sadly, defied all efforts to convince them to make a CBI/PTO version of CM, so such expedients as this will have to do for the time being.

If interested, drop by the Scenario topic and see the Kohima thread there for more info.

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-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.

[BeBop Deluxe]

There has always been a bias against Pacific Theatre games. Now we have the perfect vehicle for the Pacific Theatre and the Company isn't going to do it?? I was very disappointed when I first heard that! CM could do a Pacific Theatre version which would be awesome, and I think it would sell.

[Slatersdog]

Count me in for a Pacific CM, I can think of a couple of workable scenarios off hand, apart from Guadalcanal & those mentioned above, the 6 month long Campaign for Buna & its two airfields on the New Guinea northeast coast, or Milne bay where the Japanese used light tanks against the Aussies, yeah tanks would be limited but I'd like to bury a few Jap bunkers with an armoured bulldozer, which did happen

[M. Bates]

Pacific CM would be a Sack Of Crap, whatever gloss anyone puts on it.

[Chupacabra]

Bates, do you actually know anything about the war in the Pacific?

It's not my first choice of theaters to model, but that's just a ridiculous statement.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[MajorEazy]

Anybody obssessed enough to play these games to start with doesn't care whether its early war, overlord, eastern front, Italian campaign, Pacific war etc. If your interested in ETO, I'm sure your also interested in the pacific war. If the games created to a high standard, people will play it, and love it.

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bates, do you actually know anything about the war in the Pacific?

It's not my first choice of theaters to model, but that's just a ridiculous statement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well for one I would not refer to the war as "the war in the Pacific". I think it's scope was greater than that. It's just I would much prefer a game set in Russia or North Africa.

We have already established that Combat Mission can't or won't simulate beach landings, so why bother with a Pacific game?

[Mark IV]

Malaya and Singapore!

Enough tanks and armored cars to keep the motor enthusiasts occupied... I think this one is suitable for a mod. Seems like more of a graphics challenge, than anything in code. "Germanese" set to high levels of fanaticism would work well, and maybe a Lynx or even an AC for the Jap tanks.

I think about it lots, though I don't have the time to put into it now.

Don't forget the rubber tree plantation mods. And some Aussies set to Veteran.

[Douglas Rudd]

One era/time I would would like to see is the Spanish Civil War.

My .00002 worth.

Doug

[Bullethead]

M. Bates said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We have already established that Combat Mission can't or won't simulate beach landings, so why bother with a Pacific game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I continue to be amazed at the ubiquity of this misconception that the PTO was beach landings only. Just like in the ETO, the landings themselves were the least of the fighting; the real combat was inland. Thus, CM wouldn't have any problems doing the PTO on this account. So just like CM1 doesn't have the Normandy and South of France landings, and CM3(?) won't have all the Sicilian and Italian landings, a PTO CM wouldn't need island landings.

Another big misconception about the PTO is that it was just an unbroken series of assaults on bunker lines. Far from it. Naturally, Japanese tactics varied according to the situation, but they knew as well as anyone else that you can't win if you remain passive, so they counterattacked when they could. The PTO also involved urban battles in many places. So basically, in the PTO, you have all the kinds of combat you had in Europe, over all kinds of terrain.

The CBI theater was even more varied. In fact, in Burma, the Japanese retained the strategic initiative well into 1944, even invading India that year. I believe this was the only place in the world where the Axis was ascendant so late into the war. So here at least the war wasn't Axis forces with their backs to the wall as it was in most other places.

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-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.

[M. Bates]

I stand by my ignorant comments.

[Alexander]

I don't doubt some interesting examples could be culled from the PTO. But most of the centerpiece battles like Okinawa and Iwo Jima were dreary, vehicle-free slugfests, against a dug-in, seldom glimpsed enemy, grinding across featureless beaches or under triple canopy jungle. You get malarial chills reading Sledge's book on Guadalcanal and Tinian. Could CM do it justice? Sure. But why bother?

I'm looking forward to playing multi-multi player war in N. Africa. It's sand, but with a difference.

[PeterNZer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I stand by my ignorant comments.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

..guess that means you're ignorant!

Anyway, lads, the reason bts won't do a Pacific CM is because they're not interested in the Pacific! Not manyo ther reasons really!

Would you make a game you're not interested in?

PeterNZ

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"I can be quite pleasant, you know" - Andreas

"WHERE'S THE MOAT?!" - Jon

[Frenchy]

And there lies the crux of the problem..."not interested"...if that is indeed the case.

I know that CM has a timeline of future games and we all know what they will be to a certain point. All I am asking is a good honest reassessment for a Combat Mission:The Pacific 1941 - 1945.

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Webmaster

http://www.trailblazersww2.org

http://www.vmfa251.org

[Bullethead]

Alexander said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But most of the centerpiece battles like Okinawa and Iwo Jima were dreary, vehicle-free slugfests, against a dug-in, seldom glimpsed enemy, grinding across featureless beaches or under triple canopy jungle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beg to differ. There were tanks a-plenty on both those islands. And on Okinawa, there was some serious urban combat--that island had and has a decent-sized civilian population, you know, and they lived in large towns as well as small villages. Same was true on most of the islands. I suggest you read more on this subject before making such sweeping claims.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You get malarial chills reading Sledge's book on Guadalcanal and Tinian. Could CM do it justice? Sure. But why bother?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might just as easily ask why bother with CM1? (NOTE: I enjoy CM1, I'm just turning your argument around to show its absurdity.) I mean, by mid-1944, the Germans were already bled white from the years fighting the Russians, gave the west lower priority for the forces they still had, and didn't have the fuel to move even those forces decisively. Plus the Allies had overwhelming superiority in air and arty, plus effectively limitless numbers of cannonfodder. So the outcome was as inevitable as the rising of the sun and getting there consisted of repetitive blasting of Germans with air and arty followed by massive assaults which, regardless of lower materiel quality, were assured of victory. In fact, for at least 1/2 the period covered by CM1, you read more reports of Germans surrendering en masse than fighting. You sure didn't get that behavior from the Japanese. So why bother with the ETO?

The reason to bother, in both cases, is that while at the big picture level things might be one-sided, at the tactical level different circumstances swung the pendulum of advantage to a more neutral position, or even in favor of the Axis, at various places along the front. And CM is a tactical game, so that's all the opening it needs to make good scenarios.

And BTW, there was a lot of dreary assaulting of serious fortifications manned by dug-in, rarely seen enemies in Europe as well. That whole bocage thing, the Channel ports, the Heurtgen Forest, the Siegfried Line, and most of Italy. In fact, it seems most of the ETO fighting was against prepared positions. Then once the Allies made a breakthrough, it was a quick race to the next defended line for another month or 2 of slogging. Yet this doesn't seem to have inhibited scenario designers.

PeterNZ said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Anyway, lads, the reason bts won't do a Pacific CM is because they're not interested in the Pacific!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I understand from BTS's earlier comments on this subject, BTS is quite aware that there is sufficient interest the a PTO/CBI version to make it worth doing. However, the main reason BTS doesn't want to do it is that they don't feel they have the knowledge of those theaters necessary to make the game up to the standards of accuracy set by CM1.

I am somewhat taken aback by this position. From what I saw on this board during the year before CM1 came out, I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of people with the requisite knowledge who would gladly volunteer their services in this cause.

Oh well, for now we can attempt to make CBI/PTO scenarios with what we have, and that seems to work fairly well. Meanwhile, I hope BTS changes its mind on this, or at least licenses the CM engine to somebody willing to make a CBI/PTO version.

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-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

Well, even if BTS did make a CM: Pacific, it wouldn't be until 5 years in the future, so it doesn't seem like something to get too worried about now. I do believe that an interesting pacific theatre game could be made, but I've come late to this belief, essentially having been convinced by some of the scenarios in Rising Sun; mostly, the scenarios that did not include the US I found to be more interesting.

But if they don't want to do it: I spent 10 years playing SL and then ASL and never got the Japanese expansion. I sort of wish I had it now, but I was never bored with the ETO.

And, once the major ETO times and regions are covered, there are probably other expansions I would like more -- like, say, something like ASL's historical scenarios using maps made from aerial photographs of the battlefields. With, say, a campaign game, several separate scenarios, and then the opportunity to do QBs within the historical setting.

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And some Aussies set to Veteran.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Veteran? Sheesh, that's just the ones out of basic training, elite is more like it.

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"Labrat, you're a genius"- Madbot