Partially buried buildings

[Pericles]

I've noticed some maps in the FB campaigns and scenarios have buildings that are partially buried. For example, one of the doors will be underground because of the way the buildings are placed on slopes. Do I have a corrupt game file, or is it simply that Battlefront decided not to fix this issue and that the community doesn't really care. 

[Bulletpoint]

You do not have a corrupt file.

[Pericles]

I was really hoping my file was corrupt. What kind of explanation does Battlefront give for not removing land that surrounds buried buildings? Is there a good technical reason? 

[Artkin]

4 hours ago, Pericles said:

I was really hoping my file was corrupt. What kind of explanation does Battlefront give for not removing land that surrounds buried buildings? Is there a good technical reason? 

To serve as basements maybe? The CM engine is pretty versatile and can simulate underground structures to an extent, if it's done correctly.

[A Canadian Cat]

23 hours ago, Pericles said:

I was really hoping my file was corrupt. What kind of explanation does Battlefront give for not removing land that surrounds buried buildings? Is there a good technical reason? 

Probably not. Doors don't work in those situations and that is not cool. Some buildings certainly can have partially covered first floors but then there should be no doors there and the obstruction is high enough possibly no windows either.

I would call it a bug. As in a bug in the scenario map.

[Artkin]

..As I was saying it's possible to simulate basements to an extent in CM. I added doors to the 1st floor of these houses. The house I circled in blue (The house in screenshot #1) blocks movement to the door, but the two red circled houses do not block movement from the newly added doors. Troops CAN shoot out of every house through the door, but their LOS is obstructed somewhat, and they can't really see a lot.

This is obviously not something intended or supported by Battlefront, it's just a quirk of how the engine works.

The map I used is Pilgerzel from CMCW (I already forget, one of the US campaign master maps.).

[Warts 'n' all]

10 hours ago, IanL said:

I would call it a bug. 

I think that you are being generous. I'd call it sloppy design work, that should have been fixed before Final Blitzkrieg was released.

[A Canadian Cat]

7 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

18 hours ago, IanL said:

I would call it a bug. 

I think that you are being generous. I'd call it sloppy design work, that should have been fixed before Final Blitzkrieg was released.

Right what I said

[Warts 'n' all]

19 minutes ago, IanL said:

Right what I said

Sorry I was forgetting the fact that about 8 or 9 years ago i wrote something along the lines of "I agree with everything the Canadian Cat says".

[WimO]

About partially buried buildings. It is an  artifact of how buildings are placed on a sloping terrain. The building  floor always defaults to the lowest point of terrain with which it is in contact. This includes corner to corner contact with surrounding terrain tiles. The scenario designer can often, but not always, do a workaround by altering the elevation of each terrain tile that a buildings stands on or in in contact with, to the same elevation. This is what I usually do. However, as mentioned above, it is not always possible, notably on slopes with rapidly changing elevation. The problem is more challenging with diagonally positioned buildings because there are in contact with more terrain tiles.  Given that CM's map features are based on lego-like squares and map building is like working with lego blocks, I doubt that the issue will get any easier. In large measure it's up to the scenario designers to deal with it or ignore it.

By the way, you can fix this yourself too. Do you see a building whose submergence you don't like? Open the scenario in the Editor, go into the Elevation menu and level the buildings floor and surrounds.. Et Voila! 

[Warts 'n' all]

On 7/21/2023 at 3:33 AM, WimO said:

By the way, you can fix this yourself too. Do you see a building whose submergence you don't like? Open the scenario in the Editor, go into the Elevation menu and level the buildings floor and surrounds.. Et Voila! 

We shouldn't have to fix it. The problem should have been banged on the napper before Final Blitzkrieg was released me old China. 

[sburke]

On 7/22/2023 at 12:38 AM, Warts 'n' all said:

We shouldn't have to fix it. The problem should have been banged on the napper before Final Blitzkrieg was released me old China. 

you do realize the sheer scale of that posted map and the number of buildings right?  it is comments like this that make me reticent to provide any material I work on to the community.

[Artkin]

2 hours ago, sburke said:

you do realize the sheer scale of that posted map and the number of buildings right?  it is comments like this that make me reticent to provide any material I work on to the community.

The cmcw map? 

I disagree, it doesn't take long to proofread your work. Buildings are easy. For connecting buildings just fly the camera through it and make sure there are doors in the interior. 

If youre going to make a large map, it requires a lot of work. Simple as. 

[sburke]

2 hours ago, Artkin said:

The cmcw map? 

I disagree, it doesn't take long to proofread your work. Buildings are easy. For connecting buildings just fly the camera through it and make sure there are doors in the interior. 

If youre going to make a large map, it requires a lot of work. Simple as. 

 I am guessing you haven't done a large map as I have done several large master maps for CMBN and CMFB and your technique absolutely does not work.  In fact, I have no idea why you would even think it would work.  When exactly is that you did a map on this scale?

Edited July 23, 2023 by sburke

[Artkin]

33 minutes ago, sburke said:

 I am guessing you haven't done a large map as I have done several large master maps for CMBN and CMFB and your technique absolutely does not work.  In fact, I have no idea why you would even think it would work.  When exactly is that you did a map on this scale?

I don't need to push out a master map to tell you that proofreading and checking houses does not take a long time. Map making itself takes a long time, proofreading *houses* does not. Unless you push out an entire map pack where all the buildings are connected and also unedited, then it's an overwhelmingly large issue.

[sburke]

15 minutes ago, Artkin said:

I don't need to push out a master map to tell you that proofreading and checking houses does not take a long time. Map making itself takes a long time, proofreading *houses* does not. Unless you push out an entire map pack where all the buildings are connected and also unedited, then it's an overwhelmingly large issue.

then you need to tell me something new to me as I have done several and it takes a freakin long time, so perhaps you can show me the one you have done and the process you have done to correct them?  My examples are several for CMFB, a few for CMBN and an expansion for Venafro (CMFI) which was a relatively fictional flat map.

Saying "proofreading and checking houses does not take a long time" means squat to me unless I see the results of work you have done that are comparable.  My experience is it takes freakin long time.  Not trying to be argumentative, but I have found the CM map maker to be hard to work with to adjust for stuff like this.

[Artkin]

If I were to proofread the Berlin map pack that released - yeah it would take something like 100 years, but that's because most buildings on every map are connected and unedited. Doing a map like the cmcw map I posted is childs play. I'm no stranger to long drawn out projects myself so I understand what constitutes a long time. 

For 99% of CM maps it's as much as remembering where houses were, adjusting elevation and moving on. It's a quick process. You edit in 2d, then move to 3d to add the appropriate walls if you feel something is off. 

If there's a lot of 3d editing - download an autoclicker. 

[WimO]

I am going to step up with gratitude, in support of those who spend hours and hours of their lives to create large maps, or mods, or scenarios, or campaigns, for FREE for what appears to be a small community, few of whom ever say, "Thanks". I have created half a dozen large to huge historically authentic maps each of which took from 400-1200+ hours to create. I am fortunate (or maybe stupid?) to be able to spend 16 hours a day, 7 days a week on that obsession. There are always issues to debug as well as issues overlooked. Do all modular buildings have internal doors? Are all hedges and  walls reasonably permeable for playability? Are buildings submerging? etc. What about thousands upon thousands of flavor objects? Not everything is fixable and not everything is doable.

 

[Artkin]

I'd never complain about singular errors, but I've come across some maps where the author didn't even bother to look over their creations.

I have suggested fixes to others but I don't complain about it.

Further I've actually fixed maps for others too who failed to care for their maps.

[Warts 'n' all]

12 hours ago, sburke said:

you do realize the sheer scale of that posted map and the number of buildings right?  it is comments like this that make me reticent to provide any material I work on to the community.

That's akin to saying it's OK for a car manufacturer to sell a model with dodgy brakes cuz, they didn't have time to check all the components.

[sburke]

14 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

That's akin to saying it's OK for a car manufacturer to sell a model with dodgy brakes cuz, they didn't have time to check all the components.

umm no it isn't.  not even close.  c'mon man seriously you are comparing a building door in a computer game that might be a 1 meter elevation difference issue on a 2000x2000 meter map to failing brakes on a car?  Look I get that in the 1500/1600s you didn't have as much urban landscapes (or cars), but they really are more time consuming from a construction perspective.

seriously though, when was the last time you created a map on that size to share with the community?  Would you be happier if scenario designers decided to just forgo doing any scenario that needed a map that required much effort?  The designers aren't paid in case you didn't know.

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, sburke said:

umm no it isn't.  not even close. 

Oh alright then. Have it your way son.

[Ts4EVER]

Getting flashbacks to an enemy machine gun become unhittable due to glitching under the ground in FI... same kind of scenario.

[Warts 'n' all]

36 minutes ago, Ts4EVER said:

Getting flashbacks 

I'm getting visions of living in a society where The Consumer's Association has been banned on the grounds that it isn't run by manufacturers.

[WimO]

6 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

That's akin to saying it's OK for a car manufacturer to sell a model with dodgy brakes cuz, they didn't have time to check all the components.

You pay for a car. User made maps are a free gift. I agree with Warts if the maps under discussion are 'paid for' items. On the other hand, if something is a free gift, and I don't like it, then I'll  either fix it or pass it over without fussing.

I'd like to appeal to all on this thread that we come to a peaceful ending, agreeing that there are differences of opinion which we can respect without the need to 'convince' eachother. Then we can lower the temperature and get back to more harmonious subjects.