Splitting Russian Squads

[FogForever]

Ok, just bought Red Thunder and I am working my way through the basic training campaign.  I was surprised to realize I could split those big Russian squads into 3 portions just like Western armies.  Ok, fine but then I had just read that I should use a platoon to do the job of a western squad and send 3 Rus tanks where the west would send 1 tank.  Go with mass.  Ok, fine.    In the training campaign, I have been keeping the Rus squads as a single massed component the great majority of the time.  I am pretty sure they are taking greater losses because of that decision and I am not really convinced that the massed firepower is really worth the extra losses.  So what is the consensus use of the Rus squads ability to split up into parts?  Do you split them apart and use them just like an American or German squad or do you primarily keep them in a single massed squad?  Pros and cons of your decision?  

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

IIRC if you split them and then they are out of C2 from their HQ unit then they suffer a huge morale penalty as doctrinally the Red Army were not supposed to split. I think I read, a long time ago, that BF were not going to allow it but had to in order to allow tank riding.

I tend to keep them together when I need to mass firepower but will split off a scout team etc when advancing to contact

MMM

Edited June 16, 2023 by Monty's Mighty Moustache

[PEB14]

1 hour ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

IIRC if you split them and then they are out of C2 from their HQ unit then they suffer a huge morale penalty as doctrinally the Red Army were not supposed to split. I think I read, a long time ago, that BF were not going to allow it but had to in order to allow tank riding.

I tend to keep them together when I need to mass firepower but will split off a scout team etc when advancing to contact

MMM

Exactly.

By the way please let us know how you fare in the final mission. Be warned (unlike me) that the bridge can't handle your JS and JSU armors.

[Halmbarte]

I mostly split Sov squads to get scout teams so I don't lose the lot or if I anticipate mortars or artillery to keep the causalities down. 

H

[Artkin]

If they didnt allow splitting then they would be as retarded as the Italians. Considering the code, youre going to have 8-11 dudes sitting on one floor in a house, three to four per window. Not allowing squads to split is poor game design. House to house fighting is available on 99.5% of all CM maps. 

[FogForever]

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By the way please let us know how you fare in the final mission. Be warned (unlike me) that the bridge can't handle your JS and JSU armors.

Will do.  I am about 15 minutes into the scenario.  I might finish it this weekend but probably sometime next week.

[FogForever]

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If they didnt allow splitting then they would be as retarded as the Italians. Considering the code, youre going to have 8-11 dudes sitting on one floor in a house, three to four per window. Not allowing squads to split is poor game design.

Here is the manual training warning about splitting rus squads:  

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Note: Split Soviet squads suffer a morale penalty if their teams are not within visual or voice communication of their platoon leader. Avoid spreading them too far out!

So no penalties with splitting as long as the squad elements remain within communications range of platoon leaders.  

[FogForever]

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By the way please let us know how you fare in the final mission. Be warned (unlike me) that the bridge can't handle your JS and JSU armors.

Just finished it up with 19 minutes left in the game.  Total victory w/my losses at 21 infantry and 1 T-34/85.  German losses were at 98 infantry and 4 tanks.  I believe it was the ISU-152 which took out the Tiger.  I sent one weak platoon forward on my right to take the bridge and the other 2 stronger platoons up the center.  The mass of my armor went in on the left.  It was a training scenario and turns out the Germans were green vs my Russians as vets.  Definitely could see the difference in spotting and accuracy.   It was a lot of fun but I think it is going to get a lot tougher now that the training campaign is done.  

[chuckdyke]

On 6/18/2023 at 2:01 AM, FogForever said:

Here is the manual training warning about splitting rus squads:  

So no penalties with splitting as long as the squad elements remain within communications range of platoon leaders.  

If you compare a German squad with a Soviet squad. You see the German squad has a leader and an assistant. The Soviet squad has only one, I don't know how much of a difference it makes but I suspect it does. At least when the Soviet leader croaks it the squad has no leader at all while the German squad does. It may make also a difference when you split. Still fun to keep an eye on it.

[PEB14]

55 minutes ago, FogForever said:

Just finished it up with 19 minutes left in the game.  Total victory w/my losses at 21 infantry and 1 T-34/85.  German losses were at 98 infantry and 4 tanks.  I believe it was the ISU-152 which took out the Tiger.  I sent one weak platoon forward on my right to take the bridge and the other 2 stronger platoons up the center.  The mass of my armor went in on the left.  It was a training scenario and turns out the Germans were green vs my Russians as vets.  Definitely could see the difference in spotting and accuracy.   It was a lot of fun but I think it is going to get a lot tougher now that the training campaign is done.  

You did far better than I did. Taking the bridge was not very difficult indeed, but on the left flank the German STG destroyed my armors one by one, including the heaviest ones, at medium to long range even before I could spot them. Their accuracy was perfect from the first shot to the last. t'was training for the Germans, not for my poor Soviet troops...

[FogForever]

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the German STG destroyed my armors one by one, including the heaviest ones, at medium to long range even before I could spot them. Their accuracy was perfect from the first shot to the last. 

 

I think you must have had bad luck with your spotting.  All but once, my tanks spotted first and knocked out every German tank with a single shot including the Tiger.  Sounds like you are new to Red Thunder as well.  I haven't played any of the regular scenarios yet and if you are interested, I would interested in playing some PBEM going in blind on the scenarios for both sides.  Let me know if you are up for some blind scenario PBEMs. 

 

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 If you compare a German squad with a Soviet squad. You see the German squad has a leader and an assistant. The Soviet squad has only one, I don't know how much of a difference it makes but I suspect it does. At least when the Soviet leader croaks it the squad has no leader at all while the German squad does.

I will be watching that.  Luckily I didn't lose a single platoon leader.  So I didn't see the impact.  

Edited June 19, 2023 by FogForever

[PEB14]

7 hours ago, FogForever said:

I think you must have had bad luck with your spotting.  All but once, my tanks spotted first and knocked out every German tank with a single shot including the Tiger.  Sounds like you are new to Red Thunder as well.  I haven't played any of the regular scenarios yet and if you are interested, I would interested in playing some PBEM going in blind on the scenarios for both sides.  Let me know if you are up for some blind scenario PBEMs.

I'm still wondering wether I am unusually unlucky with tanks, or if I'm definitively playing bad at using them. Probably a combination of both !

My CMRT records is terrible, even against the AI, when compared to CMFI or CMBN. So you may consider me as new to CMRT... evbn though I own it since February this year or so. I was so disgusted by my poor results that I played it far less than CMFI or CMBN.

Anyway I'll be glad to play CMRT PBEM against you, just let me know what scenario you want and which side you chose. My only restriction is, I don't play Huge scenarios and avoid Large ones.

[womble]

3 hours ago, PEB14 said:

I'm still wondering wether I am unusually unlucky with tanks, or if I'm definitively playing bad at using them. Probably a combination of both !

My CMRT records is terrible, even against the AI, when compared to CMFI or CMBN. So you may consider me as new to CMRT... evbn though I own it since February this year or so. I was so disgusted by my poor results that I played it far less than CMFI or CMBN.

Anyway I'll be glad to play CMRT PBEM against you, just let me know what scenario you want and which side you chose. My only restriction is, I don't play Huge scenarios and avoid Large ones.

Do you operate your tanks buttoned or unbuttoned? WW2-era tanks especially spot much better when the TC's head is out the hatch.

[PEB14]

1 minute ago, womble said:

Do you operate your tanks buttoned or unbuttoned? WW2-era tanks especially spot much better when the TC's head is out the hatch.

For the initial CMRT scenario, I honestly don't remember… But I try to unbutton when (reasonably) safe for the very reason that you indicate.

In one of my current game, I was able to spot first, my tank has thus the first shot… and hit a tree! Unsurprisingly, the returning shot from my opponent didn't…

[womble]

8 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

For the initial CMRT scenario, I honestly don't remember… But I try to unbutton when (reasonably) safe for the very reason that you indicate.

In one of my current game, I was able to spot first, my tank has thus the first shot… and hit a tree! Unsurprisingly, the returning shot from my opponent didn't…

Oh yeah. That's a telltale of "unlucky with tanks" alright.

Maybe that's why Russians send a platoon to do a single tank's work!

 

[PEB14]

46 minutes ago, womble said:

Oh yeah. That's a telltale of "unlucky with tanks" alright.

Maybe that's why Russians send a platoon to do a single tank's work!

I was so disgusted that I wrote a post about my "crystal tanks", somewhere else on the forum…

To be fair I'm not always that unlucky, one of my Stuart escaped 4 Schrecks shots from @kohlenklau the other day… (And he killed another couple of Stuarts of mine, but these were 100% my fault… ).

[Brille]

I split soviet squads Iike I do with western squads and haven't witnessed that much of an impact until now. 

However in my last game I got quite more POW than usual. 

My opponent split all of his squads too. Even whole fireteams surrendered which I rarely got. They were all of regular experience with mixed morale - some good, some bad. 

Maybe my Sturmpanzers got a lucky hit on the platoon hq and tipped them over this way. 

I will keep an eye on that. 

 

13 hours ago, PEB14 said:

For the initial CMRT scenario, I honestly don't remember… But I try to unbutton when (reasonably) safe for the very reason that you indicate.

In one of my current game, I was able to spot first, my tank has thus the first shot… and hit a tree! Unsurprisingly, the returning shot from my opponent didn't…

Sounds like you are dueling with tanks. 

And while I do this from time to time too you are far better of to rise your numbers. Better fight with 2 (or more) of your tanks against 1 of the enemy. So even if one of yours gets destroyed, the other one may pick up the muzzle flash and spot the enemy tank and finish him. 

You really only can afford to send in one tank if he has the armor to... well.... tank incoming shots. 

Otherwise you need to put the odds against your enemy (attack from the side, make him close the hatches/kill his commander) or you are more of a gambling person.

But luck works both ways. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Brille

[FogForever]

PEB14,  I will take a look this week at the Blitz and see if I can find some interesting scenarios that are medium or smaller.  Maybe we can do some discussions on tactics as well.  Should be fun!

[PEB14]

3 hours ago, FogForever said:

PEB14,  I will take a look this week at the Blitz and see if I can find some interesting scenarios that are medium or smaller.

Sounds good to me. Wend me a PM once you're ready!

 

3 hours ago, FogForever said:

Maybe we can do some discussions on tactics as well.  Should be fun!

Regarding the use of armor, my contribution to the tactics' discussion might be restricted to : what one shouldn't do !

[FogForever]

PEB14, PM sent!