Question of inability to recrew 251/17 HT's

[Erwin]

Have a 251/17 in a CMRT game.  It lost its crew.  However, no leg unit that mounts it is able to change the vehicle's status from "dismounted". Anyone figured a workaround, or is this another bug?

[Brille]

So the vehicle is just labeled "dismounted" but you can use all of it´s features or are your foot soldiers unable to use it at all ?

I know that sometimes vehicles/tanks that were dismounted and were destroyed soon after would still be labeled as  "dismounted" rather than "destroyed".

Have you maybe  selected the 251/17, while the infantry boarded it and didn´t de-select after that ? The status of the vehicle will only update when you have it de-selected first. Otherwise it will still be labeled as dismounted even though it is obviously fully mounted.

 

Do you have a save of that instance maybe ?

[chuckdyke]

10 hours ago, Erwin said:

Have a 251/17 in a CMRT game. 

I have tested it, ' Scenario A Debt Repaid'. Members of the same Company can mount any 251/17 and even standard infantry can function as crew members. 

[Erwin]

6 hours ago, Brille said:

Have you maybe  selected the 251/17, while the infantry boarded it and didn´t de-select after that ? The status of the vehicle will only update when you have it de-selected first. Otherwise it will still be labeled as dismounted even though it is obviously fully mounted.

 

Do you have a save of that instance maybe ?

Yes, over numerous turns I have tried to mount several sets of inf onto it including crews from other vehicles.  The 251/17 stubbornly refuses to be crewed.  Plenty of saves, but it's a mission out of "Kampfgruppe VON SCHROIF" - almost 3MB file.  Happy to send it to whoever wants to check it out.  One doesn't have that problem with any other HT.  I vaguely recall having this issue in the past with 251/17's that have had their crews killed but otherwise seem undamaged.  

The issue here is that between missions of a campaign this problem is not resolved.  This problem started two missions ago.  At the start of each mission during setup a HQ unit starts the set-up turn mounted in the 251/17.  However, the vehicle says "dismounted".  You can dismount and mount any other leg unit in the 251/17 and the same thing happens.  (The mounted unit can ACQUIRE ammo.)

As with the FO issue mentioned in another thread, it makes no sense to have a vehicle that is not recrewed between missions nor does it make sense to have a FO return every mission but the FO is unable to spot for arty cos the lone member is not a "leader".  FO's should be returned in subsequent missions with a leader.  These are clearly bugs of the campaign system.  

I have a new SETUP file that shows both problems if BF or anyone wants to check these issues out.

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Erwin

[Artkin]

There are 2 types of vehicles, 

1. Vehicles that anybody can use (Trucks, jeeps etc.)

2. Vehicles that require more advanced crews. You can't put a different crew in these. Tanks fall in this category. Think of using tank riders. You can fill an empty tank with riders but they cant crew it, even if the tank was originally empty. (Tanks, certain types of halftracks, certain types of humvees, etc). 

[Erwin]

We're talking about a 251/17.  The fact is that between missions of a campaign it is not re-crewed and yet keeps appearing is subsequent missions as "dismounted" even tho' it starts in every SETUP phase with a HQ aboard.  It's a bug.  

Ditto the useless FO that keeps reappearing in subsequent campaign missions that is unable to call in fire.

 

[Brille]

2 hours ago, Artkin said:

There are 2 types of vehicles, 

1. Vehicles that anybody can use (Trucks, jeeps etc.)

2. Vehicles that require more advanced crews. You can't put a different crew in these. Tanks fall in this category. Think of using tank riders. You can fill an empty tank with riders but they cant crew it, even if the tank was originally empty. (Tanks, certain types of halftracks, certain types of humvees, etc). 

An Sdkfz 251/17 is a vehicle that is recrewable with standard infantry, even though one might think otherwise. Concerning it´s 20mm Oerlikon I would also think that it counts as a specialized vehicle but it doesn´t. Everyone can be the driver and gunner, so it is odd that it can´t be crewed here.

 

43 minutes ago, Erwin said:

We're talking about a 251/17.  The fact is that between missions of a campaign it is not re-crewed and yet keeps appearing is subsequent missions as "dismounted" even tho' it starts in every SETUP phase with a HQ aboard.  It's a bug.  

Ditto the useless FO that keeps reappearing in subsequent campaign missions that is unable to call in fire.

 

Well I understood it so that this vehicle was shot empty on this particular mission. But as you said it happened in a mission before, right ? Then it surely should not happen this way I guess. It seems like the game counts it as "dead" and "alive" at the same time...somehow reserving the seats for the dead crew. A Schroedingers cat if you will.

 

For the FO I am still not convinced. An artillery observer is a highly specialized soldier which cannot be replaced that easily. So if he and his assistant got killed or injured in a mission before you can´t expect the game to throw in another one...at least if it is not stated anywhere that your loses will be completely compensated.

If the soldier with the radio, or any other not described as observer or assistant, survived, the game will put him in the next battle as well but he will not be able to call in fire.

So don´t think of this one-man-unit as an forward observer anymore...He is just another footsoldier now. So it is not a bug at all in my book.

It would be another call if you would tell us that your observer guy wasn´t even hit in the battle before but was counted as a casualty regardless and never showed up in the next battle.

[Artkin]

Ah okay I'm not home so I can't check. 

[Erwin]

41 minutes ago, Brille said:

A Schroedingers cat if you will.

LOL Yes, we need philosophy concerning epistemology, metaphysics, ethics, and aesthetics to understand the complexities of CM. 

43 minutes ago, Brille said:

So don´t think of this one-man-unit as an forward observer anymore...He is just another footsoldier now.

In game terms it seems rather dangerous to not replace FO's between missions as the inability to call in arty in a reasonable time could make some missions impossible.  Does one really want to find that that (for example) Mission 6 is impossible cos the FO was killed 5 missions previously?  Also... surely in RL a new FO can be found in the hours/days between missions.

What I will try is to get the useless FO killed.  Am wondering if the unit is completely eliminated it would be replaced in the next mission(s).

Anyone want to get my Mission 6 SET UP file to check re the 251/17 bug?  It's only about 3MB so could attach to e-mail... If you want send me PM.

[Erwin]

To add to the above bugs, I checked my Mission 6 setup again and in addition to the 251/17 that cannot be crewed, there is exactly the same situation with a "regular" 251/1 that cannot be crewed and permanently displays as "dismounted". 

In this situation, the setup turn starts by having two HMG teams aboard only.  (The crew - usually 1 guy for HMG units - must have been KIA in a previous mission.)  I tried mounting up a crew from another HT and also inf.  They can ACQUIRE ammo ok.  But in no instance can this 251/1 be crewed.  

This is probably a bug that only appears in campaigns.  Am thinking that when a HT loses its crew, in the next mission the crew is not replaced and the vehicle is displayed as "dismounted".  While other leg units can mount it and get ammo, they can never crew it and the vehicle is always labeled "dismounted". 

Anyone who is interested can send me PM with your e-mail.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Erwin

[Chibot Mk IX]

7 hours ago, Artkin said:

There are 2 types of vehicles, 

1. Vehicles that anybody can use (Trucks, jeeps etc.)

2. Vehicles that require more advanced crews. You can't put a different crew in these. Tanks fall in this category. Think of using tank riders. You can fill an empty tank with riders but they cant crew it, even if the tank was originally empty. (Tanks, certain types of halftracks, certain types of humvees, etc). 

To my knowledge there are 3 types

1, Tanks , assault guns, ATGM vehicles. These have dedicated crew team. And you cannot even let Panther #2's team crew the emptied Panther #1

2, trucks and jeeps, soft skin vehicles. these can be mounted and drive by anyone.

3, and here is the one in the grey zone. APC and IFVs. During setup phase, you can dismount/bail out the crew team. Put any infantry team in they will become vehicles crew memeber

Here is an example, in CMBS, I mounted a UKR scout team into an emptied BMP-2. So instead of a 2 men BMP-2 , now I have a 3 men BMP-2 with the scout team leader occupy the BMP-2 commander seat.

However, after the battle begin, if you bail out the scout team then the BMP-2 driver/gunner seat can only occupied by the original crew team. If you put the scout team back into the BMP-2 again, it will be counted as the passenger

 

This is the scenario. in the campaign it is a little more complicated. If you dismount the Sdkfz 251's crew team in mission 1 and got them killed, sorry, in mission 2 no one can crew the emptied Sdkfz251

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Chibot Mk IX

[Artkin]

Wow that is super weird.

[Erwin]

This CMRT, not CMBS. 

The vehicles than cannot be re-crewed are now 251/17 and 251/1.  For sure, any inf should be able to crew a 251/1 and have done so many times when the original crew were KIA..  

So far nobody has asked to check the actual file.  Just folks trying to pretend that "everything is ok, nothing to see, move along".  Over the 16 years of CM2 have discovered that the CM2 games are full of bugs.  Am just bringing one more to attention - if anyone actually wants to check it for themselves.  Doesn't mean the game isn't fun or that it ruins the game.  Just one has to accept and work around the bugs.

Well... having FO's never being replaced in campaigns actually can ruin the campaign.  

 

 

[Combatintman]

12 hours ago, Erwin said:

Just folks trying to pretend that "everything is ok, nothing to see, move along".  Over the 16 years of CM2 have discovered that the CM2 games are full of bugs.  Am just bringing one more to attention - if anyone actually wants to check it for themselves.  

Well... having FO's never being replaced in campaigns actually can ruin the campaign.  

 

 

The FO thing is not a bug, despite your insistence that it is.  You got him killed and the campaign script hasn't allowed for him to be replaced - take it up with the campaign designer rather than bumping your gums that it is a bug.  FOs were not two a penny in WW2 and took a long time to train so it is entirely plausible that for the duration of the campaign, there is insufficient time to identify a battle casualty replacement and bring them forward.

I offer no comment on the half-track thing other than it does seem counterintuitive for a vehicle to show up at the start of every battle after its crew has been killed.

[PEB14]

2 hours ago, Combatintman said:

I offer no comment on the half-track thing other than it does seem counterintuitive for a vehicle to show up at the start of every battle after its crew has been killed.

I'm surprised nobody has seen this before, it's not unusual for vehicles like trucks or SPW to lose their crew…

[Brille]

54 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

I'm surprised nobody has seen this before, it's not unusual for vehicles like trucks or SPW to lose their crew…

Well in my games vehicles like the sdkfz 251 usually go down with their crew. It is very rare that only the crew gets knocked out with the vehicle itself intact.

 

But yeah this case presented by Erwin should be definitaly a bug. I have watched the setup and played it for a couple of turns. If infantry is in the vehicle from the beginning, you only can order them to dismount, nothing else. However they take up the correct positions in the vehicle and are labeled as driver and gunner. So externally all seems to be fine but you can´t target or move with the vehicle. You can´t even click on it to select it. You only can do this if you click directly on the floating icon of the vehicle.

 

If you leave the vehicle empty on the first turn and try to mount it then, the infantry will do absolutely nothing. You can draw a waypoint on the Sdkfz and it will be also labeled with "embark" but the infantry don´t even flinch...they keep sitting doing nothing. Very odd indeed.

[Erwin]

It is strange that it hasn't been noticed b4.  I wonder if one of the updates has introduced new bugs like this.  Thank you for taking the time to confirm things.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Erwin

[PEB14]

@Chuckdyke pointed out in another post the difference between "bail out" and "dismount". Apparently, vehciles whose crew bailed out can only be recrewed by the original crew.

However strange and pointless this might seem, the difference might explain the "bug": if the SPWs were bailed out by the now deceased original crews and not dismounted, they're lost forever...

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Apparently, vehciles whose crew bailed out can only be recrewed by the original crew.

Never heard that b4 as am sure I have bailed out HT's b4 with no problem recrewing.  Usually it's to make more space in a low capacity HT so that an inf unit can board to acquire ammo.  That inf that is acquiring ammo is also able to crew the vehicle.  

Chuck may be confusing tanks wit HT's.  But, will check...

Actually, it's puzzling that folks prefer to endlessly discuss this rather than powering up a game and trying it for themselves.  Sometimes I wonder how many people are actually playing the game.  Only 2 people have asked for my saved files.  

Edited February 27, 2023 by Erwin

[PEB14]

I wasn't able to bail-out from a SPW, only to dismount from it…

[Erwin]

Either way, one has always been able to mount any inf unit on a 251/1 and recrew it.

One has to bailout/dismount the crew sometimes to make room for a larger inf unit in order to let that inf unit ACQUIRE ammo.  In that situation, a couple of those inf men become crew.  You can then dismount that inf unit leaving the 215/1 empty and "dismounted" and can then remount the original crew, OR...  one can mount any other leg unit to become the new crew.

Am happy to send my saved game file via e-mail (it's only 3MB) and any one can check this out for themselves.

What we have here is a bug.  And thank you to Brille for testing and confirming this.  

As I do not recall experiencing this bug in earlier plays of any campaigns, this certainly suggests that the bug has been introduced by an update.  The same applies to the 251/17 where I first noticed the bug.

************

NOTE: Having played a lot of the modern titles I have experienced that in certain modern CM2 games, vehicles come with dedicated crew.  So, even though those vehicles carry spare ammo that appear to be acquirable by an inf passenger.  The problem with this scenario is that if one dismounts the crew either one is unable to mount an inf unit, or... the inf unit can mount but the vehicle is still is still labeled "dismounted" and the inf unit cannot ACQUIRE any of the spare ammo.  Mentioned this bug years ago.  Not sure if it was ever addressed.

Another "interesting phenomenon" I found in CMBS some years ago was that if one dismounts the HUMVEE TOW vehicle, the leg crew have a TOW launcher, but there remains a TOW launcher on the HUMVEE.  I found that by mounting a small inf unit onto the HUMVEE one now has a vehicle TOW launcher as well as a leg TOW launcher.  Not sure if that reflects RL that the HUMVEE carries two TOW launchers or if this is another bug - and do not recall ever getting a response or explanation when this was first noted.  If it's a bug, hopefully it has been fixed by now.  

 

[Erwin]

For those who want to confirm that "oddities" (I try to avoid calling them bugs as that seems to upset certain folks) have been fixed here is the list I made a couple years ago:

Note: Some of the items are only pertinent to modern titles and other items are relevant to all titles.

Re CMSF2 (so far):1)  Spotting issues.  A two man scout team with no binoculars can spot enemy units at close to 3,000 meters much better than an FO (with super dooper optics tech) or an HQ with binocs.  Folks have opined that it's because one of the riflemen has a "Thermal Imager" attached to his rifle and that is why they spot so well.  However, if that is accurately simulated in CM2 then why don't all RL units have thermal imagers and scrap the expensive and heavy laser designators and other high-tech optics that seem so inferior in the game?

2)  Related to item 1) Once can have a scout team, an FO, an HQ, a Jav team etc all in the same location, literally lying on top of each other.  The scout team sees an enemy units - but even after many minutes the other teams cannot see it - they do not communicate.  There is something wrong with the C2 system.  Again... apologists say that in RL they often cannot see what their buddy can see.  However, since the Thermal Imager is so much more effective, wouldn't they simply borrow the rifle with the Thermal Imager so they could see for themselves and then line up their super dooper optical gear on the target so they could finally see it?

3)  The M1046 TOW Humvee crew can dismount and take the TOW launcher and missile with them.  According to the UI it takes something like 1.7 minutes to deploy the TOW and a lot longer to pack up.  But it never seems to deploy. 

4)  Related to item 2) It is very very hard to use any vehicle mounted ATGM in CM2 as "hull-down" doesn't mean that only the vehicle optics on the roof are exposed.  Instead the top of the vehicle is exposed and can be easily seen and fired at and destroyed.  Without being able to dismount the TOW in this example, it's usually suicidal to attempt to fire the TOW even from a hull-down position. (Not sure if this has been fixed in CMCW.)

5)  Same is true for the M707 Humvee and other "Arty Spotting vehicles" with Laser and other high tech on the roof.  All of these cannot be safely used in CM2 "hull-down" as they can be easily seen and destroyed.

6)  The M1114 AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) Humvee crew can dismount with the AGL.  However, it must be a spare from the trunk as an AGL remains mounted on the Humvee and can be crewed and operated by another crew or inf team.  Is it correct that the M1114 carries two AGL's?  (Note that the crew of the M1114 with the 50 cal can also dismount and operate it, but in this case the Humvee no longer has the 50 cal mounted.)

7)  UK HQ's in CMSF2 cannot spot for arty or air.

Heavy arty falling on top of enemy troops often doesn't incapacitate them.  While it's true that shrapnel may miss, the shock wave of a large explosion alone is usually deadly as it can liquefy one's innards.

9)  Some vehicles carry ammo that seems to be available for resupply.  But, the crew cannot ACQUIRE any, and/or neither can any other unit mount the vehicle to ACQUIRE any.  Eg: The M1046 TOW Humvee) have quantities of regular ammo eg: 5.56mm etc.  But it seems impossible to acquire any of it.  The crew cannot acquire it, and if you dismount em and mount an inf team, they also cannot acquire any ammo.

10) LOS/LOF issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building.  

11) Another LOS/LOF issue.  Frequently we find that a crew served weapon can see and target an enemy only to discover that it's only the 3rd ammo loader who can see the enemy, not the main gun/gunner.  However, it is usually impossible to move the MG or gun a few inches to a position where it can see and fire the primary weapon at the enemy.  

12)  Finding Hulldown positions is often problematic.  Some folks seem to like the "Hulldown Assist routine" available in the game.  But, often it simply leave the vehicle with no LOS to the desired target and one has to waste another turn (in WEGO obviously) manually moving the waypoints to get a hull-down position.  So, one may as well do it manually from the start.  The additional problem is that it is common that vehicles go from having "No LOS' to "Partial Hull Down" with no "Hulldown" option being able to be located in between.  One can spend many minutes dicking around with moving waypoints the shortest possible distance in this, that or the other direction to find a hull-done position (relative to the desired target), but one can only find either "No LOS" or "Partial Hulldown" positions.  It's unclear if this is an issue with the map, (maybe the terrain is strange), or the LOS routine.

13) Some vehicles like Bradleys when targeted vs a building don't use the desired weapon - their cannon - but instead fire their missiles - which often makes no sense.  (Target Light makes em use their MG's.)  BMP's are similar vs buildings: Sometimes they use their ATGM's, sometimes their cannon, and sometimes their MG - even if one orders TARGET LIGHT.  There is no indication as to why the AI chooses a particular weapons system.

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

16) Some SNIPER teams in CMSF2 carry 50 cal rounds, even though they possess no weapon that can use 50 cal rounds.  

17) Park your vehicle directly behind a small tree and any enemy fire that comes from that direction will hit the apparently indestructible tree and the vehicle may be 100% unaffected.  Unless the enemy gun moves, it can exhaust all its ammo in this way.  AI controlled guns especially can be made useless by this trick.  

18) Attempting to resupply a squad one may split off a two-man team to mount a vehicle, get the ammo, then debark and run to where its squad is.  That takes two turns.  However, the teams may not recombine.  A turn later when one again moves both parts of the squad to the same spot, they may still not recombine.  To get the teams to recombine one has to split the larger squad team into two and then move all three teams to the same spot.  Only then will the teams recombine to the full squad and complete ammo resupply.  

19) Heavy HE barrage does not seem to damage vehicle/armor subsystems as much as expected.

20) Some vehicles like the WW2 era 8 wheeled German Rad recon vehicles are supposed to be able to move as fast in reverse as forwards, but in the game move in reverse much slower.  In the game, it may be that all reverse speeds are identical or % of the forward speed.

21) Crewing oddities.  BMP's usually benefit re spotting from an extra man or two in the vehicle in addition to the crew in addition to enabling the vehicle to "Open Up".  A BMP cannot "open up" if it only carries its 2-man crew.  If the BMP has lost a crewman, and there are no other inf being carried, it cannot TARGET - it becomes merely a transport vehicle.  However, sometimes, leaving an extra two-man team in the BMP will enable it to "open up" and TARGET and other times it won't.  Adding a two man crew from another vehicle to the BMP will still not enable this BMP to TARGET anything and the BMP still cannot "open up".  The extra crew are treated as mere passengers.  It's all irregular and unpredictable.  

22) Guns in CM2 aim for the center of mass.  So, even when at short range, the gun will aim for the hull even though it may have more chance of killing or damaging the target by aiming at a different part.  If the turret is less well armored than (say) the hull that can mean that a hull-down tank may be more vulnerable than out in the open, as the turret will be the target. 

23) Tanks can spot inf ridiculously quickly given what we know of tank's poor vision when buttoned up, or in poor visibility, like in smoke etc.  Eg: Have experienced buttoned-up T-34's spotting inf HIDING 100 meters away in a blizzard - in seconds.

24) Inf is unable to detect a tank that is  a few meters away on the other side of a wall, or in poor visibility.

***************

It would be much appreciated if folks can confirm which items have been addressed, so they can be removed from this list.  Thank you in advance.

If you have encountered new issues, feel free to add your own observations here as it is helpful to BF to have all these issues listed in one place.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Erwin

[PEB14]

21 hours ago, Erwin said:

10) LOS/LOF issues.  While CM2 is supposed to be WYSIWYG it often doesn't work that way.  One can get down to level one and eyeball a situation.  But, what one sees from a location often is not what a unit will see at that same location.  Eg: The AI can see pixel-wide gaps in what human examination considers completely blocked LOS.  A related issue is that one can eyeball a situation like a road in town and there is no obstruction down a street to target a building.  But one finds that when one places a unit in that location, it cannot see or shoot at the building. 

I may be wrong, but IIRC, the only reliable mean to establish whether a LOS exists from a unit in a given place towards another unit in another location is to put a waypoint on the former place. Then you click on this waypoint, and try to direct fire on the latter point. The LOS tool then lets you know wether you do have a LOS or not.

A least this is the way I proceeded satisfactorily up to know during my very brief CM career...

 

21 hours ago, Erwin said:

14) SMOKE and buildings...  Smoke acts as if there are no obstructions or walls and will drift through a building as it is made of wire.  This is actually very helpful when one is attempting to assault a multi-room building.  But, doesn't reflect RL.

That's not a bug, it's because you forgot to close the doors and windows...

 

21 hours ago, Erwin said:

15) When one orders a SMOKE artillery strike and run out of SMOKE, the battery obviously still has all its HE rounds.  However, if you first order HE, when all shells are gone the battery has no SMOKE rounds left - they seem to have been used up as HE.

Is it related to OFFboard artillery only?

I'm 100% sure that I was able to fire my smoke and WP rounds with 51 mm Brit mortars after having exhausted their ridiculously small supply of HE shells ...

 

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, PEB14 said:

the only reliable mean to establish whether a LOS exists from a unit in a given place towards another unit in another location is to put a waypoint on the former place.

Agreed.  I use that tactic as well.  Generally, that works best for tanks as inf can lie down when resting and that changes the LOS.  

2 hours ago, PEB14 said:

That's not a bug, it's because you forgot to close the doors and windows...

I forgot the incredible detail of CM realism.  Need a command to shut windows!  

 

2 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Is it related to OFFboard artillery only?

Yes.