Friendly fire added through fire & rubble ?

[Brille]

Hello guys and girls,

I  currently play the scenario "Now or never" on the partisan side in Fire&Rubble. In short: It is an attack on a dug in german aa position in the evening, so visibility is somewhat bad.

As the firefight errupts I witnessed that some of my men make some target practise at their own guys. Lucky for me that they are really bad shots and miss most of the time.

It happens very regularily in this short battle though, so now and then they going to hit one of their brothers, until they realise their mistake and turn to the germans again.

This happens to green and regular troops alike...

 

I won´t complain at all because it is reasonable that friendly fire happens because of the bad visuals and no real command structure because of that. So Vasilij can not know that Kiril has already taken the trench in front of him, unless Kiril shouts some nasty curses back at him as he gets shot.

 

What I want to ask is as follows: Has direct friendly fire been added (or buffed) with this addon ? I played some dusk, dawn and nightbattles already in other installments but haven´t noticed friendly fire at all. This may be due to better command structures (radios, better organisation), so every unit knew where the other was...I don´t know. Or do the partisans have some tac ai tweaks in particular to simulate their different or non existant military training ?

[womble]

It kinda doesn't matter much whether Friendly Fire (by mistaken identiy, as you seem to be suggesting) has been brought in, since small arms fire will not cause friendly casualties directly. Ricochets of small arms rounds can cause friendly casualties (as the ricochet doesn't have a "side" to call friendly), as can .50cal and higher, and all HE detonations.

But I'd be surprised if there was an introduction of "mistaken identity" targeting by the TacAI. Partly because it would be very largely pointless, for the reasons above.

[Warts 'n' all]

Friendly fire has always been in the game. But it occurs pretty rarely, and usually at night. When I played this battle, I was struck by how often it broke out. Although I don't think it was down to a change in the way the game engine works.

[Brille]

19 minutes ago, womble said:

It kinda doesn't matter much whether Friendly Fire (by mistaken identiy, as you seem to be suggesting) has been brought in, since small arms fire will not cause friendly casualties directly. Ricochets of small arms rounds can cause friendly casualties (as the ricochet doesn't have a "side" to call friendly), as can .50cal and higher, and all HE detonations.

But I'd be surprised if there was an introduction of "mistaken identity" targeting by the TacAI. Partly because it would be very largely pointless, for the reasons above.

Well I just made a little video example about the situation, so you decide for yourself:

You might be right that small arms won´t inflict casualties...Im not that deep into that stuff but I also read otherwise...under certain cirumstances that it can happen (and I do not mean ricochets).  But as you can see I got 2 casualties in this video alone with no probability of richochets because the shots came in a direct line, right through the pixelsoldier.

Friendly fire accured at least once a turn as the fire fight broke out and I got 3 to 4 casualties this way. One of these I´m not quite sure if it wasn´t inflicted by actual enemy fire but the rest was indeed due to friendly fire.

[Vacillator]

It does look a little odd, sometimes they could be aiming at something else, but is it down to conditions - it's quite late/dusk in most shots.  Or an interesting thing if you watch with sound on - there are aircraft noises involved in all (I think) odd episodes.  Aircraft and CM is not a happy mix .

[Warts 'n' all]

16 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

 Aircraft and CM is not a happy mix .

Very true. And even worse on a small battlefield in low light conditions. I just wanted to planes to F%*& off.

[Vacillator]

5 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I just wanted to planes to F%*& off.

I've often thought that, but when the opposing P47s took out a lot of my enemies in FI I wasn't complaining.  Swings and roundabouts?

[Brille]

7 hours ago, Vacillator said:

It does look a little odd, sometimes they could be aiming at something else, but is it down to conditions - it's quite late/dusk in most shots.  Or an interesting thing if you watch with sound on - there are aircraft noises involved in all (I think) odd episodes.  Aircraft and CM is not a happy mix .

Your first point I can at least partially deny. Often they fired at tiles which had no enemy units in, around or in line to them, only friendlies all together. And yes I know that the tac ai sometimes shoot at old enemy locations too (without direct contact). 

 

And yes there were planes present. 4 IL2 came every now and then down from the skies and fired upon the germans in the trenches and foxoles. Mostly they fired with canons/mg but sometimes they dropped a bomb. I would have to re-watch the turns to be sure that the casualties are not caused by them but I'm at least very confident that they had nothing to do with them. 

 

But to be honest I would have thought that at least one plane would make a mistake and would come down for one of my units. But they reliably shoot up the enemy every time. 

@womble

[Bulletpoint]

I've also noticed that friendly fire seems to have been brought in, but it did not arrive with F&R; it was already there in CMFB before F&R was released.

Happens only in low visibility conditions, and I have not seen it cause any casualties yet. I'm guessing it was brought in by the latest patch - the one that fixed the suicidal hedgerow charges.

If it's not a feature, but a bug, I still think it's a nice bug. Also I'd like it to be able to cause casualties, and to be preventable by maintaining good command and control. Not sure whether that currently affects the risk of friendly fire or not.

It would also be nice if unit quality and leadership played a role.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Bulletpoint

[Warts 'n' all]

I think that the video is a tad misleading, as it looks like the OP was using "Artificial Night Lighting", so we obviously have a much better view than his troops do. And I think that the outbreak of friendly fire is understandable, if somewhat annoying.

With regards to the scenario as a whole, given that our colonial convict cousin was going for "50% Hollywood", I think he did a good job

[Vacillator]

5 hours ago, Brille said:

But to be honest I would have thought that at least one plane would make a mistake and would come down for one of my units. But they reliably shoot up the enemy every time. 

Ah okay, they were your planes.  I had imagined they were the enemy's and thought your troops might have been let's say 'distracted' by them.  Doesn't answer the questions 'does friendly fire actually cause casualties?' and 'does it happen more now than before?', but I thought it might explain the rather unlucky directions of fire. 

Looking through the video again though I don't think it would explain it anyway.

As for the planes, in my experience if they reliably shot at the enemy you were a lucky chap .  Particularly if they were flying almost in the dark .

[chuckdyke]

8 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

'does friendly fire actually cause casualties?'

Area fire does. It is impossible to organize an execution detail for a deserter. I tried it lol. Soviet Airplanes are given an area by the editor. If you move your forces inside the risks are real. 

 

[Chibot Mk IX]

I noticed this a while ago, note the incident in the below link is not caused by area fire but an intentionally targeting friendly troops.

 

https://community.battlefront.com/topic/138840-night-combat-friendly-fire-casualty-caused-by-hmg/

[Brille]

So now I made a short clinical test via the editor. Again there are partisans, again it is around 21:30 in July. It is dark but not to dark. No planes available this time.

However there are some germans around of which only one straggler group can be seen by the partisans. They shot up some of the partisans so don´t you wonder the dead bodies. The germans have tight cover arcs, so they are unable to participate in any kind of firefight. The partisans however are free to shoot anything they like...

And I don´t have to wait long for the first results. In the first case I wanted to see if area fire has an effect on passing infantry, so I fired on the single house, while part of the formation is passing by.

In the second scene you clearly can see how one mp-gunner reacts to approaching soldiers and promptly opens fire, killing one of his own partisans. Note also how he changes his aim as new partisan soldiers arrive. So he is aiming for their actual physical presence.

 

Edit: It seems that the situation like in scene 2 can only happen if there is some kind of enemy activity or threat possible. So if the unit has been or is in some kind of danger, under fire or is firing itself, then there is the possibility of friendly fire. If no "threat" is near, it will not trigger, as it seems for now.

That makes about sense because you may have several casualties alone if some maniacs would shoot each other every now and then on the way to the front. But there has to be done several tests more to be more specific (or some bfc members could clear it up immediately, no ?! )

Edited September 9, 2022 by Brille

[Warts 'n' all]

I didn't experience any friendly fire in the mission entitled "Home" which also features partisans, but takes place in daylight. So my money is still on it being pitch black, and the fact that quite a few of the troops in this mission are "Green". 

[Lethaface]

This is in the game since CMSF IIRC and only occurs in a specific situation, I think low light + conscript troops under different formations might do the trick. or sumfink. They can misidentify and actually cause harm against friendly troops.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Lethaface