Is this a bug or WAD? Large on map Mortar dispersion (in CMBS)

[Chibot Mk IX]

Is this a bug or WAD? On map mortar has a larger dispersion compares to off map one. 

I noticed this case in CMBS, later I will check if WW 2 CM and CMSF 2 , CMCW have the same issue.

 

Please see screenshot below

We have three buildings. I have the FO to issue a point target fire support order to the left building with 1 tube 120mm mortar on map.  Another tube of on map 120mm will target the  building in the middle directly. Then the building on the right side will be targeted by off map 120mm battery (1 tube/heavy/maximum fire mission)

 

As you can see below:  the on map mortar fire support mission has a very large dispersion. The dispersion circle’s radius is about 2.5 times of the off map mortar fire support mission.

 

82mm mortar has the same issue.

 

82mm's impact is too hard to see, so take a close look at it

 

Left building 

 

Central

 

Right

 

 

Any reason on why?

[Chibot Mk IX]

test scenarios and save files are here

1, test scenario

2, 120mm begin

3, 120mm end

4, 82mm begin

5, 82mm end

 

 

[Fizou]

Thanks for sharing. Very anecdotal on my part but I found the Soviet on map 120 mm mortars in CMCW to be very inaccurate as well (compared to previous experiences with off map 120 mm mortars cross many titels)

[The_MonkeyKing]

Working as intended. as far as I can tell.

Distance effect the spread. Off map being the longest range away. 

Direct fire from mortar is generally most accurate.

[Chibot Mk IX]

8 hours ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Working as intended. as far as I can tell.

Distance effect the spread. Off map being the longest range away. 

Direct fire from mortar is generally most accurate.

Well, the problem is : The On-map mortar fire support mission (target the left building) has the largest spread. 

[Jace11]

Maybe he didn't read it fully or understand or conduct the tests?

Yeah looks like a bug, especially considering a similar test in other titles shows far more precise results with point target orders.

I did your test in other titles, I tried Cold War and a couple of WW2 titles, and got completely different results to what I saw in Black Sea. Didn't try SF2 yet.

 

 On map mortar point target in Black Sea just looks like an area target to me. The gunner constantly shifts aim around on purpose like an area fire order. Maybe the bug went unnoticed because people use "precision" fire for similar situations in Black Sea.

 

[chuckdyke]

If you use the on-map mortar for an indirect fire mission, you will still use the of the map fire direction centre. The only explanation I have for the pattern. 

[Jace11]

I dunno to be honest, having redone the test in BS and CW, they seem pretty similar. I was always under the impression "on map" was more the more accurate option, but in indirect mode "off map" seems better now. It just seems nonsense for a point target they spot onto the target and then just spray all over at 400 m range. I tried an area target mission with the smallest area possible and it looked the same.

[fireship4]

I find on map US tracked 120mm mortar carriers to be more or less useless for point targets due to this, unless using precision rounds.  Not to mention they don't seem to work as a pair on multi-unit fire missions.

Edited August 14, 2022 by fireship4

[chuckdyke]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:21 PM, Jace11 said:

I tried an area target mission with the smallest area possible and it looked the same.

How do you do area fire if you fire direct? If you use a spotter, he will use the off-map fire direction centre. 

[Ultradave]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:26 AM, chuckdyke said:

If you use the on-map mortar for an indirect fire mission, you will still use the of the map fire direction centre. The only explanation I have for the pattern. 

But that might only affect the accuracy of the mission, and not the dispersion. The rounds shown are on-target but much more widely dispersed at short range than long. This seems counter-intuitive. This is possible in real life but just in very specific instances. If a mortar (or artillery high angle fire) is fired at an extreme high angle which corresponds to shorter range on map, it is going to fly a higher arc, IF it's fired at the same charge as the longer range off map ones. Wind direction varies at different levels and a high elevation round will pass through more layers. Artillery accounts for this by using the "Met" data and applying appropriate small corrections. I don't know if company mortars do that, and to get an evenly distributed wide dispersion you'd have to have winds moving at evenly distributed random directions at different levels of the atmosphere. 1) that's highly unlikely, 2) on map close range would probably use a lower charge and not fly has high, negating that argument, and 2) pretty sure that's not in CM's modeling, even abstractly.

None of that helps answer the question of why it's happening in game, and it does look odd. I'm going to take those tests and see what others on the beta boards think about it. Thanks for the specific tests. Those should help to look at it.

Dave

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, Ultradave said:

None of that helps answer the question of why it's happening in game,

Using mortars in direct fire mode. Scenario Road to Nijmegen first mission Battle for Normandy. It seems they are still using spotting rounds shooting at tentative contacts generated by a different fire team of his platoon. It is only after the first minute the direct fire mission lands on target. So I question or the wide pattern could actually be ranging shots. Who is doing the spotting any HQ or a proper FO.

 

[Ultradave]

Asked on the beta forum and this is something that has been reported long ago that Charles looked at and was unable to remedy. I had not known about it or noticed it.

Dave