HQ Support Teams - best use?

[dkchapuis]

I’ve been using the various HQ support teams as cheap special weapons teams. (I mostly play PvP QBs)
 

is there some under-the-hood reason I should not do that and leave them in the back with the HQ?

[domfluff]

Yup.

HQ support teams (XO teams) are your C2 links to other formations.

Imagine if you had a (weirdly stripped down for the purposes of clarity) force like this:

An infantry battalion, consisting of an Infantry company, and an armour battalion consisting of a single armour platoon.

The armour and infantry in this case are part of different battalions, and so will not share their C2 network with each other. Spotting contacts that the infantry see may never get to the armour, and if it does it will not do so swiftly or efficiently.

However, all units will share C2 horizontally within four action spots. This means if you do this:



Then the Battalion HQ will remain in contact with both their XO and the infantry company via their radios, and the XO can keep the armour in C2 via horizontal sharing. That way the armour can benefit from the spotting information that the infantry can do, and you can do that whole "combined arms" thing.

[domfluff]

In some of the WW2 titles, your XO elements have neither radios, nor radio-equipped transport. In that case their job is to run between formations and to transmit this information manually. That's obviously less efficient, and puts some limits on what you can do with them.

[BeondTheGrave]

Wait I am a little confused here. I see the Battalion HQ is in C2 with both his subordinate (the lower HQ) and the tank platoon (who isn't his subordinate?). So if the infantry develops a contact, it will pass its way through the chain to the tanks. But I still dont see how the XO team here fits in. Should my take away here be that the XO team should be forward within the 4 spaces of units in action to help spread contacts out across formations more rapidly? Or am I still missing something?

[domfluff]

No. The HQ element is in contact with his XO. There is no direct connection between the infantry and the tanks in the above example.

By keeping the XO to within 4 spaces of the tank platoon you're creating a connection from XO to tank platoon, so you're effectively appending the tank platoon onto the Infantry battalion structure, by using the XO to do it.

That same role could be performed by any unit in the infantry battalion, but since each step in C2 takes time, anything that isn't an immediate step from the HQ will take longer to transmit. Because of this, this can even work inside an existing formation, short-cutting C2 steps.

Simplified:

[domfluff]

You could keep the battalion XO next to the tank platoon and do the same job, but the point of the XO is that you don't have to, and it allows you to create those connections over larger areas.

[dkchapuis]

“Within 4 spaces of the tank platoon”. 
 

can you expound on this a little. I’ve never seen anything about the CM mechanics of “4 spaces”. 
 

(haven’t had a chance to Google it yet)

 

also, thanks for the explanation!!! It is much appreciated!!

[domfluff]

MOS's excellent thread on how C2 works in-game.

The main purpose (but not only purpose) of the command and control model in CM is to share spotting contacts. Existing spotting contacts help units spot faster, so you always, always should start an engagement with the maximum amount of information available to the engaging units.

Essentially, spots share vertically. If you have a platoon, and squad 1 has the spot, but you need squad 3 to get it, then that information will travel:

Squad 1 -> Platoon HQ, then from the Platoon HQ down to Squad 2 and Squad 3.

This is "vertical", since it goes up and down the TO&E formation.

Platoon HQs talk to company HQs, and company HQs talk to battalion HQs. That means the further separated you are, the longer it'll take to spread. It's also why dedicated recce elements tend to be embedded high in the org chart, so that there's minimal steps from them to the company HQs.


In addition to this vertical sharing, there is horizontal sharing, where any two units will share within 4 action spots (32m). That's close audio range, so that's two unit who can talk to each other. Two units of any kind will share regardless of organisation, and taking advantage of this mechanic is what the XO teams are for, since you have a unit who has a direct line of communication with the top-level HQ unit, and can be given a direct communication to a supporting asset (typically tanks or atgm teams or whatever).

 

[dkchapuis]

Thanks again for the better explanation!  I will check out that thread!!

[dkchapuis]

Another question related to this - sorry if I missed it in the other thread. 
 

if a platoon HQ is eliminated, can you use the Battlion XO team or the company HQ team to give the squads C2 and leader bonus. Or are they not equivalent to the platoon HQ for those purposes??

[domfluff]

The other thing the XO team does is take over if the HQ is killed.

So, if you had:

Battalion HQ + XO
Company HQ
Platoon HQ

Then the platoon will link to the company which will link to battalion.

If the Battalion HQ is eliminated, the XO team will become the battalion HQ after a few seconds (their icon will change to the HQ icon, and the C2 links will update).

Since the Company HQ and Platoon HQ elements don't have an XO unit in the above organisation, there's no-one to take over once that link is severed, and the higher HQ assets have better things to do than to babysit a platoon.
 

[MikeyD]

I'm a bit surprised nobody's made a joke about using the HQ support team to supply the CO with booze and girls.

[MOS:96B2P]

On 4/25/2022 at 4:28 PM, dkchapuis said:

I’ve been using the various HQ support teams as cheap special weapons teams. (I mostly play PvP QBs)
 

is there some under-the-hood reason I should not do that and leave them in the back with the HQ?

Made me think of a very old but relevant topic.  Please excuse Photobucket's vandalism. 

 

 

 

[Simcoe]

On 4/25/2022 at 3:07 PM, domfluff said:

Yup.

HQ support teams (XO teams) are your C2 links to other formations.

Imagine if you had a (weirdly stripped down for the purposes of clarity) force like this:

An infantry battalion, consisting of an Infantry company, and an armour battalion consisting of a single armour platoon.

The armour and infantry in this case are part of different battalions, and so will not share their C2 network with each other. Spotting contacts that the infantry see may never get to the armour, and if it does it will not do so swiftly or efficiently.

However, all units will share C2 horizontally within four action spots. This means if you do this:



Then the Battalion HQ will remain in contact with both their XO and the infantry company via their radios, and the XO can keep the armour in C2 via horizontal sharing. That way the armour can benefit from the spotting information that the infantry can do, and you can do that whole "combined arms" thing.

Thank you for sharing. Does this work if the tank is buttoned?

Also, is this how things work in real life? I would imagine that the tank battalion HQ would be issued a list of radio frequencies for that mission and one of them would be the infantry battalion comm channel.

[Combatintman]

Assuming that the tank and infantry battalion were part of the same regiment/brigade they would be on that regiment/brigade's command net which is not modelled in CM.  In UK practice the Bde HQ would be Callsign 0 on that net, the tank battalion would be Callsign 10, the infantry battalion 20, another infantry battalion would be Callsign 30.  Information is therefore shared up/down and laterally across that net.  Each battalion would have their own net on a different frequency with the battalion HQ as Callsign 0, with A Coy/Sqn as Callsign 10, B Sqn/Coy as Callsign 20, C Company/Squadron as Callsign 30 etc.  Similarly, each company/squadron has its own net and frequency with the HQ as Callsign 0, 1 Platoon/Troop as Callsign 10, 2 Platoon/Troop as Callsign 20 and 3 Platoon/Troop as Callsign 30.  Each of the HQs therefore can monitor and speak on their own net and that of the echelon above - eg B Company monitors and speaks on its own net and can monitor and speak on the net or the battalion that it is a part but cannot monitor or speak on the brigade net or the net of any other battalion in that brigade. 

Lateral communications at battalion and above level can also be facilitated by LOs (Liaison Officers) from flanking units who come with their own vehicle, a copy of their own battalion's plan/staffwork and are of course their own communications.  The LOs will be callsigns in their own right on their own battalion's net and the LO vehicle would basically attach itself to the HQ packet of the unit that they are there to liaise with so that they can directly brief that HQ about what is going on in their parent battalion's AO and in turn brief their own battalion HQ via the radio net about what is going on in the AO of the unit they are liaising with.

Although not explicitly modelled in CM as LOs and other bits and pieces of HQs are quite often the bits that get stripped from the RL TO@E when converted into the in-game TO@E you could achieve the same effect by buying a radio equipped team which sits under (in this case) the infantry battalion HQ and by buying a radio equipped team which sits under the tank battalion HQ and then moving them around the map as part of the other battalion's HQ.

The principle is the same across most NATO or NATO-aligned armies I've come into contact with.

[chuckdyke]

I don't know or it is against the spirit of the game. I solve the matter of communications sometimes by swapping vehicles. The FO with the TacAir support or put the XO with a different unit. It works they pass on the tentative contacts. 

[ALBY]

Necro-posting here.

In a recent huge battalion sized CMBS PBEM, I had four mounted spotters in bfist and all the X0 hiding together in a solid building and I could target with just about any spotter on any drone footprint.  had three drones up I think, one eagle and two ravens. The spotters could precision target on their own drone footprint and area target on any drone footprint. The BFIST could also area target on any drone footprint. I think this was because the XO were sharing spots. 
 

I never knew what that little PDA symbol really meant until this one particular game. I had a lot of indirect assets and a lot of fun in that PBEM.

Edited December 17, 2022 by ALBY
Clarity and spelling lol

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, ALBY said:

I never knew what that little PDA symbol really meant

It is like a smart phone. You share your information with any other unit in the formation. Transmission is by satellite, I was out of C2 with the platoon HQ but the company HQ received the intel before the platoon HQ.

 

[Erwin]

My experience is that the C2 system exhibits weird results when one has multiple Bn HQ's.  Eg: I had a WW2 game where the Co HQ received C2 info from a unit from a different company well b4 the "proper" Co HQ.  My suspicion is the CM C2 system works great in "ideal laboratory conditions".  But, in a "messy" game with hundreds of units and multiple Bn HQ's...

Edited December 17, 2022 by Erwin