Kraft Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 (edited) 4 hours ago, Joe982 said: Well Russia's USD accounts are frozen. So, how are they paid? Well US companies are prohibited from selling to russian military. So, how do 27 out of 34 parts of the Iskander that killed 53 people on tuesday end up being US manufactured? Can't think of any way how this could happen. Edited September 5 by Kraft 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 36 minutes ago, Kraft said: Well US companies are prohibited from selling to russian military. So, how do 27 out of 34 parts of the Iskander that killed 53 people on tuesday end up being US manufactured? Can't think of any way how this could happen. Well you could read up on it a bit. Or jump to heavily biased pre-constructed conclusions: https://www.csis.org/analysis/back-stock-state-russias-defense-industry-after-two-years-war (Part 2 btw) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 4 hours ago, Joe982 said: Well Russia's USD accounts are frozen. So, how are they paid? On the off chance this is a serious question: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 33 minutes ago, akd said: On the off chance this is a serious question: It would be sad if that were a real question, unless the poster is very young. There's laws against all kinds of things, like money laundering. But thanks to cleverness, greed, and lapses in legal systems... it happens all the time. Russia can fund ANYTHING it wants if it has the motivation to do so. All the West can do is make it more difficult and expensive. It can also punish those who cooperate with sanctioned Russian activities. Which is why I hope Billbindc is correct that indictments of these Russian paid American citizens are forthcoming. They should be in jail. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 (edited) 10 hours ago, Fenris said: I would argue it's not just in the US. The same divisive messages are being amplified all over the west from the UK to AU. Tapping into local discontent and turning up the heat. It's hardly a new tactic, just the tools are changing allowing greater reach and traction. This is another topic related to my day job. It can be hard to imagine the scale of these efforts if you do not work in the industry, but a significant amount of activity online is relatively easy to identify as coming from known criminal organizations, state actors and other shady sources. When the average person thinks of divisive messengers in their lives they might think of a handful of annoying trolls or disagreeable characters on their favorite wargaming forum, but there are many orders of magnitude more accounts that seeded and amplified these messages across every corner of the internet in the first place. Even small-time platform operators are taking down thousands of these accounts every day, and unfortunately they're not always identified during signup or onboarding. Some sleeper accounts lie dormant for months or years, but more sophisticated actors can generate a normal amount of plausible-looking activity before activation. Once the attack is triggered, the anomalous behavior can often be correlated and the networks discovered, but by then it's too late to stop the propaganda they were planted to spread or the fraud they were designed to enable. This tactic uses the capitalist system against itself, because in the context of both VC-funded startups and public companies, the metrics that drive increased valuations are monthly active users, daily active users etc, and so there is a disincentive for companies to kick off users, even if there is some degree of confidence that they are sketchy. The Russian state in particular is notorious for engaging in this kind of warfare. Of course skeptics might respond "but America does it too!" which... yes but also no. I am sure sure the US has some of the best hackers in the world working in their intelligence agencies trying to cover up clandestine astroturfed propaganda efforts, but either those hackers are absolute wizards compared to the rest of the world's, or the US can achieve its goals by trying to manipulate global affairs in ways other than blasting a firehose of disinformation at anyone who has the misfortune of existing in a social circle influenced by these agents. I don't want to say "you can't trust anything you read", but it really is worth thinking about who stands to gain from certain forms of sensationalistic, outrageous reporting. Online it's not enough to see a list of sources or the support of popular influencers to assume something is legit, not when certain state actors are well-known for funding grifters and maintaining vast networks of accounts in their attempts to shape public opinion. Personally I don't think Russia is directly responsible for all of the facepalm moments we've seen in the west over the past ~10 years, but it is very clear that they are exploiting every weakness that presents itself. It's depressing to me that people still deny this, or when presented with evidence respond with a shocked Pikachu face. "How could we ever have known?" Folks, we been knew. Edited September 5 by alison 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kraft said: Well US companies are prohibited from selling to russian military. So, how do 27 out of 34 parts of the Iskander that killed 53 people on tuesday end up being US manufactured? Can't think of any way how this could happen. Easy. The US suppliers source their US military chips from China instead. That leaves them plenty of homemade chips left over to sell to Russia! Clever, those war profiteers, eh? https://themerge.co/p/microchips /sarc, but we are all so screwed anyway.... Edited September 5 by LongLeftFlank 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraft Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 (edited) 1 hour ago, The_Capt said: Well you could read up on it a bit. Or jump to heavily biased pre-constructed conclusions: https://www.csis.org/analysis/back-stock-state-russias-defense-industry-after-two-years-war (Part 2 btw) It was not a slight at the US, this topic has been discussed. I was mimicking the posters particular choice of words in a sarcastic attempt to show in simple terms that just because something shouldnt happen doesnt make it not happen with a basic, recent US example that killed 53 people and injured 300-400. ----------- As to why no measures have been taken by everyone incl Europe to limit the 1000x% increases in trade with russian puppet border states is another matter. Edited September 5 by Kraft 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 16 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said: Easy. The US suppliers source their US military chips from China instead. That leaves them plenty of homemade chips left over to sell to Russia! Clever, those war profiteers, eh? https://themerge.co/p/microchips /sarc, but we are all so screwed anyway.... There it is. Welcome to globalization. We dumped stuff on the Chinese to make cheaper, so we could keep our profit margin up...what could possibly go wrong? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probus Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 17 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said: Easy. They source their US military chips from China instead. That leaves them plenty of chips left over to sell to Russia! Clever, those war profiteers, eh? https://themerge.co/p/microchips /sarc, but we are all so screwed anyway.... Just to be clear @LongLeftFlank as a retired Program Manager for avionics maintenance and repair for the USAF, I've seen 100s if not 1000s of schematics for the B-2 Bomber and not once did I ever see a circuit that was sourced by China. Not once. Now I can't say if a company sold the microchip to China (which would be illegal, ITAR), but there are no Chinese circuits on the B-2 Bomber that I have ever seen. This goes for many weapon systems, not just the B-2. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 51 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said: It would be sad if that were a real question, unless the poster is very young. There's laws against all kinds of things, like money laundering. But thanks to cleverness, greed, and lapses in legal systems... it happens all the time. Russia can fund ANYTHING it wants if it has the motivation to do so. All the West can do is make it more difficult and expensive. It can also punish those who cooperate with sanctioned Russian activities. Which is why I hope Billbindc is correct that indictments of these Russian paid American citizens are forthcoming. They should be in jail. Steve Interestingly, the two main players (Lauren Chen and husband) were not indicted yesterday. That's quite likely because they were indicted under seal months ago and became cooperating witnesses in exchanger for leniency. So while RT (and probably the SVR) are patting themselves on the back publicly, their internal assessment must be that for some significant period of time their operations were penetrated and heavily surveilled by US intelligence agencies. So, a necessary caveat to my prediction is that we may not actually see much of what is done with or to some folks but that there will be a lot going on nonetheless. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 5 minutes ago, Probus said: Just to be clear @LongLeftFlank as a retired Program Manager for avionics maintenance and repair for the USAF, I've seen 100s if not 1000s of schematics for the B-2 Bomber and not once did I ever see a circuit that was sourced by China. Not once. Now I can't say if a company sold the microchip to China (which would be illegal, ITAR), but there are no Chinese circuits on the B-2 Bomber that I have ever seen. This goes for many weapon systems, not just the B-2. Then you were a lone beacon in the darkness, apparently: https://www.americansecurityproject.org/us-defense-supplies-china/ https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/press-releases/senate-armed-services-committee-releases-report-on-counterfeit-electronic-parts https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2024/01/09/americas-carriers-rely-on-chinese-chips-our-depleted-munitions-too/ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 (edited) 3 minutes ago, The_Capt said: Then you were a lone beacon in the darkness, apparently: https://www.americansecurityproject.org/us-defense-supplies-china/ https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/press-releases/senate-armed-services-committee-releases-report-on-counterfeit-electronic-parts https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2024/01/09/americas-carriers-rely-on-chinese-chips-our-depleted-munitions-too/ https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/65e61e6392aba0fa1dba723e/66104c1d4e3ae7809bcd8082_Govini_2024_Numbers-Matter.pdf s 3 minutes ago, The_Capt said: duplicado Edited September 5 by LongLeftFlank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 There is one guy I'm pretty sure is going down, however: 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probus Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 (edited) 19 minutes ago, The_Capt said: Then you were a lone beacon in the darkness, apparently: https://www.americansecurityproject.org/us-defense-supplies-china/ https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/press-releases/senate-armed-services-committee-releases-report-on-counterfeit-electronic-parts https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2024/01/09/americas-carriers-rely-on-chinese-chips-our-depleted-munitions-too/ I can only speak to the weapon systems I was deeply involved in but, I guess I am. I know what I've seen with my eyes for 18 years. You can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm sure those sources have no agendas. Edited September 5 by Probus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 2 minutes ago, Probus said: I guess I am. I know what I've seen with my eyes for 18 years. You can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm sure those sources have no agendas. And you don't? I served in the Canadian military for 36 years. Working strategic force development and procurement that crossed international lines. No ones hands are clean. Cold War ended and everyone wanted to get richer in the afterparty. We are now in the hangover. Now I do know of a lot of companies that wanted to "look clean." They put a lot of effort into that. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photon Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 28 minutes ago, Probus said: Just to be clear @LongLeftFlank as a retired Program Manager for avionics maintenance and repair for the USAF, I've seen 100s if not 1000s of schematics for the B-2 Bomber and not once did I ever see a circuit that was sourced by China. Not once. Now I can't say if a company sold the microchip to China (which would be illegal, ITAR), but there are no Chinese circuits on the B-2 Bomber that I have ever seen. This goes for many weapon systems, not just the B-2. It would be interesting to know how far up the supply chain folks are talking about. I can see both @Probus and @LongLeftFlank being correct if the things defense contractors are sourcing are close to the raw materials. Think 7400s or individual transistors rather than whole assemblies? I dug around in the linked reports but didn't see any indication of what sort of microchips and components we're talking about. If we're sourcing 7400s from China that's less of a problem as they are well understood (tm) and easily replaceable. The further up the abstraction chain you go, the bigger a problem it is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probus Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 3 minutes ago, The_Capt said: And you don't? What is that supposed to mean? Are you saying I'm lying? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probus Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 2 minutes ago, photon said: It would be interesting to know how far up the supply chain folks are talking about. I can see both @Probus and @LongLeftFlank being correct if the things defense contractors are sourcing are close to the raw materials. Think 7400s or individual transistors rather than whole assemblies? I dug around in the linked reports but didn't see any indication of what sort of microchips and components we're talking about. If we're sourcing 7400s from China that's less of a problem as they are well understood (tm) and easily replaceable. The further up the abstraction chain you go, the bigger a problem it is. We may be sourcing 7400s from China but that's not what is on military equipment. We use 5400s. And again I want to state, I can't talk to Navy weapon systems or systems I haven't worked on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 4 minutes ago, Probus said: What is that supposed to mean? Are you saying I'm lying? Just in case you were missing Mike Dorosh, the Capt has taken up his cudgel as 'Forum Cranky Canadian'. Don't get him started on Bren tripods though. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eug85 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 9 minutes ago, The_Capt said: And you don't? I served in the Canadian military for 36 years. Working strategic force development and procurement that crossed international lines. No ones hands are clean. Cold War ended and everyone wanted to get richer in the afterparty. We are now in the hangover. Now I do know of a lot of companies that wanted to "look clean." They put a lot of effort into that. Does the Canadian military operate B-2 bombers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probus Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 1 minute ago, LongLeftFlank said: Just in case you were missing Mike Dorosh, the Capt has taken up his cudgel as 'Forum Cranky Canadian'. Don't get him started on Bren tripods though. Lol. Canadians don't get cranky, do they? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 2 minutes ago, Probus said: What is that supposed to mean? Are you saying I'm lying? My oh my, you are touchier than LongLefty on a Sunday morning today. I have no idea whether you are or are not. I do know that everyone has an agenda of some shape or size. They are the filters we place on reality. The tricky part is 1) knowing they are there, and 2) seeing past them. It is also why depending on opinion and ones own perspective/experience is tricky. I saw plenty of evidence of us selling out to the Chinese, but I am not going to think of that as fact without doing some research first. And lo and behold...it would appear that supply chain vulnerabilities are alive and well. Other sources do a pretty good job out outlining how US parts wind up in Russian missiles, which corroborate the effect of wider globalization of supply chains worldwide. So that all tells me that despite your experience, supply chain dependence on China is very likely still happening. While your experience has weight, it does not carry in the face of all the other issues. Now the B2 was a pretty freakin high end strategic hedge platform e.g the US ain't selling it. So perhaps the controls on that single platform were tight. But that don't mean a damned thing if the entire US C4ISR targeting architecture is maggoty with Chinese semi-conductors...now does it? Kind hard to know where to point that sexy beast when the ISR is polluted, and precision weapons it carries are also spotty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 5 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said: Just in case you were missing Mike Dorosh, the Capt has taken up his cudgel as 'Forum Cranky Canadian'. Don't get him started on Bren tripods though. I miss that weird little guy to be honest. Remember the German mannequin? Gawd, this place was a lot more fun back then. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 5 minutes ago, Eug85 said: Does the Canadian military operate B-2 bombers? Nope, we just plug into US C4ISR, weapons and logistics at pretty much every level. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Of interest: https://mayak-intelligence.com/research-materials/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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